ESE's works engine tuner

[Frits Overmars]

...I could use regenerated brake energy to cool the engine. In fact there's distinct possibilities in using a very large alternator and an even larger starter motor...

About 100% of brake energy is generated at the front wheel. How would you recover that? An in-wheel generator would be fine if only it had zero mass...

...for how much time is that existing engine on full throttle anyway? See, with probably somewhere around 20kg worth of kit you could run that one engine at full throttle 100% of the time, charging a battery when you don't need that much and then, when you do want power....

True.

It gets better. An engine that can be tuned for a static 12krpm can make more hp than one that has to have power across 30% of its rev range.

Not true. You could drop items like power valves and power jets, but that won't raise peak power. And you can't gain anything in changing exhaust pipe dimensions; they are already optimal for peak power.

So a nominal 35hp engine running at peak hp rpm full time, charging a battery for, say 30% of that time can provide maybe 50hp during those times when you want it.

Aside from your assumed power figures, that is true. Still, too bad that we haven't yet found a way of recovering that front wheel brake energy.

A generator/motor used like that is considered just a transmission in most heavy industry. Until you stick a battery in the system that's really all it is.

True again. And in my opinion, if that battery is empty at the start of the race, this setup should still be considered just a combustion engine with an electric CVT.
It could even be more than just a transmission: you wouldn't need a clutch anymore, implementing traction control would become much simpler and you could have a reverse gear if you wish.
Electric motors already have an excellent efficiency and I have been searching for a generator with an efficiency to match. That would definitely be the answer to all my transmission wishes.
And I may have found what I've been looking for: http://www.magnomatics.com .

[Ocean1]

About 100% of brake energy is generated at the front wheel. How would you recover that? An in-wheel generator would be fine if only it had zero mass...

I wasn't really offering. But getting some sort of drive, possibly hydraulic, back from the front wheel to a generator midships would be a start. Hydraulics aren't spectacularly efficient, but recovering say 80% of that energy is probably worth at least the 3-4 kg worth of pump/motor. If you can use it.

Not true. You could drop items like power valves and power jets, but that won't raise peak power. And you can't gain anything in changing exhaust pipe dimensions; they are already optimal for peak power

OK. I'd sort of assumed a few % could be got at peak by ignoring the requirement for flexibility, but the advantages of a full-time 100% output available at need doesn't rely on that few extra %.

Aside from your assumed power figures, that is true.

I was simply interpolating current best practice, re-tuned for static revs. If we have to live with 32hp odd then, as above, let's have it there all of the time, eh?

True again. And in my opinion, if that battery is empty at the start of the race, this setup should still be considered just a combustion engine with an electric CVT.
It could even be more than just a transmission: you wouldn't need a clutch anymore, implementing traction control would become much simpler and you could have a reverse gear if you wish.
Electric motors already have an excellent efficiency and I have been searching for a generator with an efficiency to match. That would definitely be the answer to all my transmission wishes.
And I may have found what I've been looking for: http://www.magnomatics.com .

One of the other good things about such a setup might be the accuracy with which a small processor could manage generation and consumption. Even learning which parts of a track to anticipate load requirements.

Generators are well outside my field, unfortunately, will have a wee look at your discovery though...

Edit: I see: "Magnomatics ultra high torque PDD® operates with a conventional off-the-shelf AC electric drive"
Is that what you had in mind? Some of those AC drives come with some quite advanced intelligence these days.

I can see huge advantages in a rim-mounted drive/generation system, simply because of the high velocity and low torque. No drive load through the wheel hub. Same rationale for the front wheel generator... In fact if the componentry is there anyway you'd be braking on the front and driving on both wouldn't you? Or is that superbike territory.

[Ocean1]

Can even put Mark's regen under brakes idea to effect pretty easily.

I get SO tired of having all of these brilliant ideas just to find someone else had them decades ago, y'know?

But don't expect the rules to favour technology not available on the showroom floor for long, dude.

[Frits Overmars]

getting some sort of drive, possibly hydraulic, back from the front wheel to a generator midships would be a start. Hydraulics aren't spectacularly efficient, but recovering say 80% of that energy is probably worth at least the 3-4 kg worth of pump/motor. If you can use it.

I'm afraid those hydraulics would yield less then 80% efficiency and weigh more than 4 kg. And even a few kilos of extra unsprung weight is very bad for lap times.

I can see huge advantages in a rim-mounted drive/generation system, simply because of the high velocity and low torque. No drive load through the wheel hub. Same rationale for the front wheel generator... In fact if the componentry is there anyway you'd be braking on the front and driving on both wouldn't you? Or is that superbike territory.

I can see the same advantages but I'm afraid the rim would get too heavy and too hot. If anyone would offer a solution for those problems, I would jump at it.
Two wheel drive sounds great if you're ploughing through mud, but agricultural racing is not my hobby. And superbikes spend a lot of their time on one wheel, so no advantage there either.

[Frits Overmars]

I get SO tired of having all of these brilliant ideas just to find someone else had them decades ago, y'know?

The main thing is to find them at all.
BTW, I love brainstorming like this.

[136kg136ps]

Frits,could the energy be transferred via something similar to a speedo cable to a regenerative device more central to the motor?Perhaps even coupled to the motor in a manner so it could operate in braking as a generator and on acceleration as a motor,the additional rotating/sprung mass would be less than having all that on the wheel and fork.You would get energy from the front braking and perhaps have some engine braking as well.Of course it would take a very complex control system.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits,could the energy be transferred via something similar to a speedo cable to a regenerative device more central to the motor?Perhaps even coupled to the motor in a manner so it could operate in braking as a generator and on acceleration as a motor,the additional rotating/sprung mass would be less than having all that on the wheel and fork.You would get energy from the front braking and perhaps have some engine braking as well. Of course it would take a very complex control system.

That is a very logical line of thought. Can we find a 30 BHP speedo cable?
Even if we could, it wouldn't do us much good because braking power, even in a bucket, can easily exceed 100 BHP. And all that power through that cable, or chain, or cardan shaft or whatever, should not influence the sensitivity of the steering in any way. I don't yet see a practical solution.

[husaberg]

That is a very logical line of thought. Can we find a 30 BHP speedo cable?
Even if we could, it wouldn't do us much good because braking power, even in a bucket, can easily exceed 100 BHP. And all that power through that cable, or chain, or cardan shaft or whatever, should not influence the sensitivity of the steering in any way. I don't yet see a practical solution.

brakes turn motion into heat, engines turn chemical composition into heat and energy.
i thought oh yeah....thermocouples...unfortunalty thermocouples all though they can generate electricty from heat, they are only about 5% effeicent
Then again how efficent is an internal combustion engine 10%.......
(the kergs or what ever it is called system) seems to work like a kids toy.. remember the ones where you used to load in flywheel motion and then hit the button and then relase this stored energy and off they went.
big issue would be the gyro effect would render the bike handling "interesting" to say the least, it could be worked around with say two of them contra rotating i guess?

In the 1950s, flywheel-powered buses, known as gyrobuses, were used in Yverdon, Switzerland and there is ongoing research to make flywheel systems that are smaller, lighter, cheaper and have a greater capacity. It is hoped that flywheel systems can replace conventional chemical batteries for mobile applications, such as for electric vehicles. Proposed flywheel systems would eliminate many of the disadvantages of existing battery power systems, such as low capacity, long charge times, heavy weight and short usable lifetimes. Flywheels may have been used in the experimental Chrysler Patriot, though that has been disputed.[16]

Flywheels have also been proposed for use in continuously variable transmissions. Punch Powertrain is currently working on such a device.[17]

During the 1990s, Rosen Motors developed a gas turbine powered series hybrid automotive powertrain using a 55,000 rpm flywheel to provide bursts of acceleration which the small gas turbine engine could not provide. The flywheel also stored energy through regenerative braking. The flywheel was composed of a titanium hub with a carbon fiber cylinder and was gimbal-mounted to minimize adverse gyroscopic effects on vehicle handling. The prototype vehicle was successfully road tested in 1997 but was never mass-produced.[18]

In 2013, Volvo announced a flywheel system fitted to the rear axle of its S60 sedan. Braking action spins the flywheel at up to 60,000 rpm and stops the front-mounted engine. Flywheel energy is applied via a special transmission to partially or completely power the vehicle. The 20 centimetres (7.9 in), 6 kilograms (13 lb) carbon fiber flywheel spins in a vacuum to eliminate friction. When partnered with a four-cylinder engine, it offers up to a 25 percent reduction in fuel consumption versus a comparably performing turbo six-cylinder, providing an 80 hp boost and allowing it to reach 100 kilometres per hour (62 mph) in 5.5 seconds. The company did not announce specific plans to include the technology in its product line.

another way of looking at it is If the heat could be captured The heat could be turned into steam ...but thats only a pipe dream
i do remeber a ducati was twin converted to a single and the spare cylinder was used as a pump supercharger,it charged a pressure vessle and this was used as boost available on demand. It weighed the same as a twin likely cost the same to mass produced made pretty much the same hp as a twin so was pointless unless it was a cc or one cylinder class.

[Flettner]

Just become massless then you don't need brakes for the corner.

[2T Institute]

Porsche KERS system is a carbon fibre rotor with the magnets embedded in it mounted paralel with the ground, most bang for buck that way. Besides buckets are about finding how little you need the brakes and all about going faster through the corner

[Ocean1]

I'm afraid those hydraulics would yield less then 80% efficiency and weigh more than 4 kg. And even a few kilos of extra unsprung weight is very bad for lap times.

Pump/Motor at the hub could be as light as a simple twin gear device, need weigh no more than, say a brake caliper. Brake control might be via a swash-plate pump/motor at the other end of the circuit. Hoses might weigh no more than a disc. Admittedly a 6mm hose running reasonably high pressure is fairly stiff, likely to affect suspension performance, but probably only twice as stiff as a standard brake hose under the same conditions. As for efficiency, both gear pumps and swash plate pumps are typically around 90% mechanically efficient, so 75% overall plus other minor system losses isn't outrageously overstating it. And we are talking about energy usually totally lost, the ability to recover and use it at anything better than the original bike's power to weight ratio is likely to be worth considering.

I can see the same advantages but I'm afraid the rim would get too heavy and too hot. If anyone would offer a solution for those problems, I would jump at it.

Doesn't actually have to BE the rim, could be a ring fastened to and insulated from the rim.

You got me on the weight, though, even counting the mass saved from eliminating the existing brake system it's likely to be heavier. How much heavier? I don't have the time or tallent to specify those magnets, but neodymium is the material of choice for hybrid vehicles, I just don't know how much is chosen.

I sometimes have occasion to use these: http://www.linmot.com/ I wonder if we could convince them to make a 400mm ring shaped "rotor" and a curved stator...

[F5 Dave]

Just become massless then you don't need brakes for the corner.

yeah, but think of the crashes after lunchbreak.

[Flettner]

The 360 rotary valve engine, vairable rotary valve housing. The intake side is not machined yet but it's a start. This engine will have the throttle controled by the ECU, it will adjust the valve housing, this will become the throttle. I will just tell the ECU how much torque I need and it will deliver.
Imagine the crashes after lunchbreak on this one!

[F5 Dave]

^{with so many projects on the go it would be only fair if the universe grants you a lifetime extension.}

[Flettner]

Unfortunatly I like projects.