ESE's works engine tuner

[F5 Dave]

Well as I said, fully synthetics like 2T are not good when overheated in an engine that runs leaded race gas,where the normal running temp needed to
make the fuel work correctly, destroys the film strength - the only good reason to be running a full synthetic in the first place.
And at 30:1 it would struggle in any real race engine.
. ..

I run Av & if I change back to synth I'd have run 800 like in the 50. I know you've panned it for tests on aircooled engines but presumably ok for leaded WC use? I've tried 20:1 on the 50 & seen no changes on the dyno so I've been running 30:1 for forever. All it (the 50) gets is a ring every year & a new piston every 3rd & performance comes back to original but after 10 years the bore needs a replate. 800 is available & affordable(ish) but open to suggestions.

[TZ350]

Page .... 970

...not sure if this link has been put up already...pretty cool stuff, it's sucked a bit of my time... http://www.gt-rider.com/thailand-mot...se-Motorcycles

Oil and EGT talk

has somebody tried this oil. says its good to 45,000 rpm

How is the exhaust bridge? solutoin was to drill 4 holes with 1.5mm chamfered to 2mm.

Or another note, what do you guys think about the shell racing M oil? I can't run it on the 125, fouls plugs like there is no tomorrow, A747 doesn't do anything like that, but runs great in the cast iron 45mm crm liner.

Well as I said, fully synthetics like 2T are not good when overheated in an engine that runs leaded race gas,where the normal running temp needed to make the fuel work correctly, destroys the film strength - the only good reason to be running a full synthetic in the first place.
And at 30:1 it would struggle in any real race engine.

I had no idea you could still buy A747 - easily the best oil made for leaded fuel, many years ago.
Shell M was developed in the stone age,for use with Methanol fuels, so no reason to be using it for anything else, or at all really.

I wouldnt put Amsoil in a race engine if it was given to me, and it ran at only 5,000 rpm. Last engine I saw on Amsoil, was a microlight that had crashed, due to a skirt dropping off. The other piston was OK, except for the 0.012" bore clearance after 3 Hrs in the air - running 100:1 like it said on the bottle.

Every RS125 by Honda should have 2 bridge lube holes and 1 each side of the boost,unless you want to be freeing snagged rings all the time.
A T port is absolute hell on any oil trying to keep the ring off the bore, even with super trick piston shapes and properly relieved bridge geometry.

I run Av & if I change back to synth I'd have run 800 like in the 50. I know you've panned it for tests on aircooled engines but presumably ok for leaded WC use? I've tried 20:1 on the 50 & seen no changes on the dyno so I've been running 30:1 for forever.

All it (the 50) gets is a ring every year & a new piston every 3rd & performance comes back to original but after 10 years the bore needs a replate. 800 is available & affordable(ish) but open to suggestions.

Motul 800 a similar brew as Castrol 2T but as I said the much later Motul Kart product seems to be a very good imitator of castor - the 800 certainly wasnt, with every engine I pulled down being very "dry" unlike Kart where everything is covered in a slobbery wet film.

20:1 shows gains in the aircooled KT100, but not so much in a watercooled, except in reed engines where the richer mixture always helps reed cushioning and prevents incipient tip chipping.

Very good. Reeds are chipping a little even at modest revs with piles of oil.

ok i found something interesting. it says nothing about this in the ingredients on the data sheets

'Thanks to its high content in specially selected ricinus oil, ELF HTX 909 provides exceptional
protection against gripping.'

http://www.nkp-karting.com/uploads/p...20909%20EN.pdf

revised 2-20-2014 http://www.quickfds.com/out/16986-29...967-017784.pdf

The 909 oil mix seems to be specifically directed at the 20,000 rpm direct drive 100cc kart engines, and as I said its for sure the best oil today for the aircooled KT100 Yamaha, as I have done the direct testing for a customer who is one of the top tuners here.

Those guys are all die hard castor users, and it has taken several years to convince them the 909 is " better " but now they all use it.

Running the 976 full synthetic always lost power on the dyno when run very hard at 650 + in the header, as all top Yamahas do.

This was designed specifically for the unleaded GP engines, that dont run super hot like we did back in the day of full leaded rocket fuel, nor like they do in aircooled race engines.

Here is an old dissertation on how castor works.

asphttp://www.go-cl.se/castor.html

http://www.go-cl.se/castor.html

So as I read that if you're air cooled run Castor or ideally 909.

If yer watercooled run a decent synthetic ester oil. I'm assuming you don't consider Av as being a hot burning GP like rocket fuel, its just all that we can run vs pump fuel.

AvGas runs best exactly like the old leaded rocket fuel, if you dont have 650*C in the header you aint doin it right.

So yes 909 is for sure the best in an Aircooled running hot at 650*, but is equally fine in a watercooled on AvGas - just dont use a full synthetic in anything
that runs AvGas properly.

Find some old A747, or stick with Elf 909 or Motul Kart.
If you are running unleaded properly at rich ie cooler temps, then spend up large on Elf 927 full noise synthetic if you feel the need..

We used this castor mix oil for the first time when winning the KZ2 Nationals.
I havnt dynoed it yet, but will do soon after a rebuild is finished.

http://www.kartsport.org.nz/about-us...-now-available

Seems most top kart teams use this now, no one gets it free, so they must have tested it to death in Europe.

Huge EGT temps mean Jack Shit, I have seen idiots with a stock head TZ350 running 2 base gaskets that saw 1360 for 20 laps without seizing.

But funnily it was 5 seconds off the pace of a properly tuned one running 1245/1255 on AvGas.
Getting the max com and max advance possible for the fuel ,without deto is the key - and for AvGas or up to 110 race gas ,mid 1200s at max power means you are on the money.

One jet leaner , if it only sees around 20 to 30* hotter, means the optimum is back one jet richer, as the perfect scenario is 50 to 60* per jet change, as this always gets back to the max power available.

Sure the oil must be good with so many top teams running it, but telling me you have seen 1300 ( like some sort of red badge of courage ) just means the rider wasnt watching the gauges/and or ignored
the warning lights ( and should be shot ) or someone made a wrong tuning call on an engine that wasnt on the money to start with.

On unleaded it would be detoing unhappily around 100* richer at 1200 if tuned to the edge.
If it was really on the limit, it would have locked up at 1300 ,no matter what oil was on the bore.

That was a bit of a rant - but having riders tell me afterwards they saw over 1300 on the gauge, but dont understand why the bloody motor siezed because they didnt change the jets ,from coming off the dyno really piss me off.

No it's jetted on the money at 1250F each time it hits the track, but there is a certain amount of time it takes to get the carbs/airbox/fairing back on and be out on the dummy grid. Aand in that time 'something' changed and EGT's were regularly hitting 1300 at the end of the straight, the rider owns the bike, pays the bills and ultimately it is his decision what to do when the EGT starts flashing. He decided to go for it, taking T1 at full noise with his hand over the clutch each lap. Other oils hit 1300F once or twice in a race and the pistons show the deto or go bang. His opinion was the xeramic oil saved a seizure.

But its still my firm belief Lozza,that with another 1.5 degrees of advance or another 1/2 ratio of com the engine would have siezed when pushed to 1300.
With the jetting on the money at 1250, then logic dictates that it would also have been faster, running normally with the extra advance or com.

The only reason an engine doesnt sieze when running at 1300 is that its not maxed out at 1250.
Like I said running the TZ350 with super low com, it ran all day at 1300 + but was dead slow.
If the engine saw deto when running at 1300 before, I simply cannot see how changing the oil can make that deto go away - sure a super oil can prevent a lockup by simply being a better lube on the bores - but somehow killing deto .Na, that would mean the oil affects the octain rating of the fuel - making it illegal
and it certaily isnt in CIK.

As you say - something changed, to allow ( and cause ) that mental temp to occur, and whatever that issue was, it increased the thermal death limit of the
engine,and thus by inference,it must have reduced the performance level to allow that to temp happen as well.

With my egt sitting safely on the shelf as it has for last couple of years after a false start & loss of drive to re-experiment (I'd inserted the tip too far in on a tiny 50cc pipe and it was overheating the returning charge I believe as when I removed it the power returned),

annyhoo. You're stating the temps as constants. is this assuming that the position of the probe is i the correct place in the pipe? Or could you distort the readings required by placing in incorrect place or wrapping the pipe? perhaps they would only get cooler than danger zone.

I have had the probe anywhere from the flange face ( like Aprilia did ) to around 75mm from the cylinder.

The tip would normally be in the middle, but on the dyno I have done tests with it only 10mm inside the pipe.

Never seen any difference in the readings, as Robin Williams said " its hot, damn hot ".

But wrapping the header is a very bad idea, overheating the return gas slug causes deto, so no free lunch there.

But doesn't all premix oil effect the Octane? just some worse than others...... I guess you are meaning a positive effect? rather than a less of a negative one than previously was occurring?

Ok got it. I mentioned wrapping as a variable someone might be employing that might get different results. I I haven't wrapped my pipe since the 90s when I'd seen it on GP bike pics but a Cameron article sorted me out explaining the sled origins.

The egt readings converging to 1250* for Avgas or up to around 110 octain leaded, at peak power, is just another piece in the jigsaw of trying to optimize the com and advance of an engine to achieve the ideal BSFC for the fuel being used.

Not enough com and or advance and the egt will run hot, needing more fuel to lower the temp.
This energy carrying fuel mixture is then not being used to create power, but simply lower the egt.
As I have said before the synergy of fueling, com and advance can be detected easily on the dyno, and on the track.

If you progressively lean down and get to just on 1200, then go down another ( Keihin/Dellorto ) jet size, the egt will rise another approx 50* if everything is on the money.

If you only see 20* rise, you are operating on the cusp of diminishing returns due to too much advance, too much com, or too small a stinger.

An engine running in this zone will react badly to even small increments in RAD.
If by chance it then runs any leaner due to a drop in ambient temp say,it will sieze, any richer and power will drop.

Going the other way, if you see 1250 with the single jet change, and then the RAD makes it go leaner, and it jumps up to 1300, then the engine wasnt BSFC optimized in the first place.

Wobbly, Your acronym RAD, what is it? Really Awful Detonation, Replace After Detonation.....? Keep up the interesting flow of info, it's great Thanks Ken

Relative Air Density. Each 3% away from your dyno baseline of Air Temp, Humidity, and Pressure is a one jet change, and should get you back to your best power egt.

[Yow Ling]

All it (the 50) gets is a ring every year & a new piston every 3rd & performance comes back to original but after 10 years the bore needs a replate. 800 is available & affordable(ish) but open to suggestions.

Is your 50 nicasil bore?

[F5 Dave]

My RG was plated steel liner, made it last when it wore out on last over. Not many are (were) proficient at doing anything other than ally.

[wobbly]

Motul 800 a similar brew as Castrol 2T but as I said the much later Motul Kart product seems to be a very good imitator of castor - the 800 certainly wasnt, with every engine I pulled down being very "dry"
unlike Kart where everything is covered in a slobbery wet film.
20:1 shows gains in the aircooled KT100, but not so much in a watercooled, except in reed engines where the richer mixture always helps reed cushioning and prevents incipient tip chipping.

And I must throw some shit about the combustion chamber shown, it could not be a better example of what not to do in a modern race engine if you tried.
Crap surface finish, round corner into the bowl, flush plug tip with old fashioned heavy metal earth electrode, and 1.2 squish that wasnt working anyway.
Would have been perfect in Vespa riding Italian posties scooter during the war running 72 octain kerosene.

[Frits Overmars]

... I had heard tales of how close the Cagiva was to being a Yamaha clone

Back then the Japanese factories were eager to keep the 500 class alive. Right after the 199x season Cagiva had the title-winning Yamaha 500-4 on loan for over a month. And Honda (picture) made its not-for-sale Keihin carb units available to Cagiva.

[husaberg]

Back then the Japanese factories were eager to keep the 500 class alive. Right after the 199x season Cagiva had the title-winning Yamaha 500-4 on loan for over a month. And Honda made its not-for-sale Keihin carb units available to Cagiva.

From what I understand a set magically appeared for Patton as well (care of burgess i think) rather than Honda direct, after they asked Honda how much they would cost for a set and were told $20000 and left rather disheartened......
I whish I could find the pics of the Harris cranks because they are pretty much exactly the same and I have heard most stuff was interchangable.
Wob mentioned the Yamaha boys used to help the Cagiva team.
Overall after studying a lot of pics My guess is the Honda NSR500 ends up not too much wider than the Yamaha/Cagiva Suzuki afterall due to the phasing and the gap the twin crank has to have for decent transfers as demonstrated by the Cagiva crank.

[F5 Dave]

Motul 800 a similar brew as Castrol 2T but as I said the much later Motul Kart product seems to be a very good imitator of castor - the 800 certainly wasnt, with every engine I pulled down being very "dry"
unlike Kart where everything is covered in a slobbery wet film.
20:1 shows gains in the aircooled KT100, but not so much in a watercooled, except in reed engines where the richer mixture always helps reed cushioning and prevents incipient tip chipping.

And I must throw some shit about the combustion chamber shown, it could not be a better example of what not to do in a modern race engine if you tried.
Crap surface finish, round corner into the bowl, flush plug tip with old fashioned heavy metal earth electrode, and 1.2 squish that wasnt working anyway.
Would have been perfect in Vespa riding Italian posties scooter during the war running 72 octain kerosene.

Very good. Reeds are chipping a little even at modest revs with piles of oil.

also my barrel is too worn to next over. Start again.

[RomeuPT]

I would say 1.2mm squish unless you have a elastic rod, or a huge bore and stroke (say 100mm by 100mm) is not squishing much at all.
It should be nearly half that I would have thought.

I have mentioned the early Cagiva injection before based on a similar set up based on the early 851 set up.
here is some pics harvested from facebook.

He is mentioning a stock engine.

IS funny that the namura does not get the ring stuck so easy at teh exhaust bridge. Maybe I need to check better the mixture strenght at peak power...

[RomeuPT]

Back then the Japanese factories were eager to keep the 500 class alive. Right after the 199x season Cagiva had the title-winning Yamaha 500-4 on loan for over a month. And Honda (picture) made its not-for-sale Keihin carb units available to Cagiva.

Looking at the pic, the exhaust flanges seem to be of some thick metal don't they? Woudn't this part of the pipe be made of thin mild steel or titanium sheet so it can heat faster and the pipe temp be more responsive to rpm changes? Or there is probably some different trick on them then we see with the 125cc?

[Frits Overmars]

Looking at the pic, the exhaust flanges seem to be of some thick metal don't they? Woudn't this part of the pipe be made of thin mild steel or titanium sheet so it can heat faster and the pipe temp be more responsive to rpm changes? Or there is probably some different trick on them then we see with the 125cc?

The straight upper pipes of the Honda NSR500 are built-up titanium units (yes, for thermal reasons), but stamping titanium is extremely difficult, so the first, curved parts of the headers are separate castings. The lower headers are much more curved, so they are produced as stamped steel units.

[wobbly]

A couple of sets of Ti Keihins made it onto the Swiss Auto/Pulse team bikes as well, costing enough to pay most of the mechanics for a year ( which they werent )
Sadly they were shagged, and were so inconsistent in mid range jetting the riders were never sure what was going to happen next when rolling on/off the throttle - just a bit
disconcerting when the thing is trying to kill you on every corner.

[peewee]

hey guys you know of any specific sae papers with oil tests for synthetic ester and castor oil ? scoured the web but i havent found any legitimate tests or information. seems its mostly urban legend passed down the grape vine is all i see

wobbly i found alot of talk about htx909. people saying it has some percentage of castor. says no mention of castor in the data papers . whats wrong with these people ?

[peewee]

ok i found something interesting. it says nothing about this in the ingredients on the data sheets

'Thanks to its high content in specially selected ricinus oil, ELF HTX 909 provides exceptional
protection against gripping.'

http://www.nkp-karting.com/uploads/p...20909%20EN.pdf

revised 2-20-2014 http://www.quickfds.com/out/16986-29...967-017784.pdf

[wobbly]

The 909 oil mix seems to be specifically directed at the 20,000 rpm direct drive 100cc kart engines, and as I said its for sure the best oil today for the aircooled
KT100 Yamaha, as I have done the direct testing for a customer who is one of the top tuners here.
Those guys are all die hard castor users, and it has taken several years to convince them the 909 is " better " but now they all use it.
Running the 976 full synthetic always lost power on the dyno when run very hard at 650 + in the header, as all top Yamahas do.
This was designed specifically for the unleaded GP engines, that dont run super hot like we did back in the day of full leaded rocket fuel, nor like they do in aircooled race engines.
Here is an old dissertation on how castor works.

asphttp://www.go-cl.se/castor.html