ESE's works engine tuner

**MotleyCrue** · 24th October 2015, 12:53

Originally Posted by wobbly

Here is an extract of mine of a dyno report I was paid to do by a customer.

"
In the test I did we narrowed it down to testing two oils for the application - a KT100 direct drive Yamaha kart engine.
This engine is run all day on the edge of destruction with egt sitting at 1280*F to get the heat in the pipe.
Without this temp it wont pull to 16000,and will be "slow".
With a new piston, we ran in, then tested on fully synthetic Elf 976 that the GP teams use.
We tested at 30 and 16:1.The lower ratio made no more power but after a severe thrashing on the dyno we pulled the cylinder and the piston had score marks all over the thrust faces.
Then we put in a new piston,with a very light hone to replicate the first test but on Elf 909.
This is castor based and we found that at 16:1 the new oil made consistently 0.3 Hp over the 30:1 and that this was 0.2 Hp up on the previous oil.
So - 0.5 Hp in an engine that makes just under 17Hp and the piston looked brand new after the test. "

Bottom line is that the oil to use is application specific, in that full synthetics are fine on unleaded or low egt temp, but crap in high temp and or racegas uses.
The castor ( or ester syn ) based oils are better in both applications but alot better when used at very high temps and rich mix ratios..

Bean oil has always been my first choice when applications permit. Still there must be a good reason why 16:1 oil makes more power. My guess is if you ran that same fuel/oil mix in a 4 stroke it would make less power than it would with no oil in the fuel (adjusting the air fuel mix to optimum in both tests), so I cant see how the oil would help combustion in either a 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Must be another reason which more than outweighs the likely loss in power from worse combustion with oil in the fuel.

I have yet to run anything severe on Redline 2 cycle alcohol oil but it mixes with everything, and I do mean every type of fuel or additive, and it is fine at cold temps. Time will tell.

**husaberg** · 24th October 2015, 12:59

Originally Posted by MotleyCrue

Bean oil has always been my first choice when applications permit. Still there must be a good reason why 16:1 oil makes more power. My guess is if you ran that same fuel/oil mix in a 4 stroke it would make less power than it would with no oil in the fuel (adjusting the air fuel mix to optimum in both tests), so I cant see how the oil would help combustion in either a 2 stroke or 4 stroke. Must be another reason which more than outweighs the likely loss in power from worse combustion with oil in the fuel.

I have yet to run anything severe on Redline 2 cycle alcohol oil but it mixes with everything, and I do mean every type of fuel or additive, and it is fine at cold temps. Time will tell.

The answer is sealing of the rings and bore is superior with the Castor oil as are the lubrication qualities in extreme aplications. It need not help the combustion at all to achieve more power, it may well (and likely does) make it worse, but regardless the net result is it consistently makes more power with less scuffing.
It does of course varnish and gunge up the engine components faster making it impractical on the street. But this is not an issue with competition engines. But you already knew that bit.

**2005bully** · 24th October 2015, 13:04

Originally Posted by wobbly

Here is an extract of mine of a dyno report I was paid to do by a customer.

"
In the test I did we narrowed it down to testing two oils for the application - a KT100 direct drive Yamaha kart engine.
This engine is run all day on the edge of destruction with egt sitting at 1280*F to get the heat in the pipe.
Without this temp it wont pull to 16000,and will be "slow".
With a new piston, we ran in, then tested on fully synthetic Elf 976 that the GP teams use.
We tested at 30 and 16:1.The lower ratio made no more power but after a severe thrashing on the dyno we pulled the cylinder and the piston had score marks all over the thrust faces.
Then we put in a new piston,with a very light hone to replicate the first test but on Elf 909.
This is castor based and we found that at 16:1 the new oil made consistently 0.3 Hp over the 30:1 and that this was 0.2 Hp up on the previous oil.
So - 0.5 Hp in an engine that makes just under 17Hp and the piston looked brand new after the test. "

Bottom line is that the oil to use is application specific, in that full synthetics are fine on unleaded or low egt temp, but crap in high temp and or racegas uses.
The castor ( or ester syn ) based oils are better in both applications but alot better when used at very high temps and rich mix ratios..

Many tuners have seen how a 2 stroke engine pushed to the limits of heat and stress will perform longer and stronger with Castor oil..... The following link offers an explanation. Kermit Buller

http://frcm.org/index.php/articles/6...-oil-explained

**MotleyCrue** · 24th October 2015, 13:36

Originally Posted by husaberg

The answer is sealing of the rings and bore is superior with the Castor oil as are the lubrication qualities in extreme aplications. It need not help the combustion at all to achieve more power, it may well (and likely does) make it worse, but regardless the net result is it consistently makes more power with less scuffing.

Taking that further, from 80 BTDC to 80 ATDC the air fuel mix doesnt know if it is in a 4 stroke or a 2 stroke engine, its just in a confined space being compressed and burned.

Theoretically the same 16:1 fuel/oil mix should make more power in a 4 stroke than plain fuel in a 4 stroke, for the same reason as it makes more power in a 2 stroke (combustion is a bit worse but ring sealing is a lot better). That is unless ring sealing in a 4 stroke is already a lot better than ring sealing in a 2 stroke but why would that be so?

**husaberg** · 24th October 2015, 13:40

Originally Posted by MotleyCrue

Taking that further, from 80 BTDC to 80 ATDC the air fuel mix doesnt know if it is in a 4 stroke or a 2 stroke engine, its just in a confined space being compressed and burned.

Theoretically the same 16:1 fuel/oil mix should make more power in a 4 stroke than plain fuel in a 4 stroke, for the same reason as it makes more power in a 2 stroke, that being combustion is a bit worse but ring sealing is a lot better. That is unless ring sealing in a 4 stroke is already a lot better than ring sealing in a 2 stroke but why would that be so?

They conventional four strokes have pressure feed controlled lubrication, oil control rings, pressure feed cavities, they rotate, They are not fixed postion and they don't have to transverse open ports. plus normally more rings. d they don't have peteol diluting the ioled cylinder both on top and below the piston.
I can 't remember for sure but I think in a four stroke piston the top ring does 80% of the sealing the second 20%
I posted a lot of piston and ring stuff a while back that would answer your questions I guess.
(link to be added)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130863005

**Lightbulb** · 24th October 2015, 15:42

They used to sell upper cylinder lubricants for valves and rings years ago for 4t engines. I guess with everyone on the make it burn cleaner thing, was phased or outlawed due to emissions. That is where Harry enters the scene. Very low emissions. Material coating technologies are coming a long way.Especially in the tooling for metal removal. The coatings, have to handle high heat,and not have the material weld to it, as well as work with little to no coolant. The latest stuff in Europe is to work without the conventional liquid coolant. Anyway, I am sure that some of these coating technologies would be quite good for engine parts. There are DLC, diamond like coating on inserts for cutting ali, but also these coatings are making their way in model engines. It is only a matter of time and more research before they will become more commonly used in larger engines. Some model engines are now using an anodising process for cylinder liners, instead of hard chrome, but I have not seen a real high performance model engine with the anodised liners yet.OS have a coating on crankpins that seems to last for ever and not wear out. Some Russian engines have ceramic materials for things like gudgeon pins, being lighter and seemingly ,are not breaking. At about 1/2 the weight of a steel pin with a hardness way higher than any steel and a lower friction value. For all that though, they don't seem to have any significant advantage power wise, but maybe have a longer small end rod life.
Neil

**husaberg** · 24th October 2015, 17:31

Originally Posted by Lightbulb

They used to sell upper cylinder lubricants for valves and rings years ago for 4t engines. I guess with everyone on the make it burn cleaner thing, was phased or outlawed due to emissions. That is where Harry enters the scene. Very low emissions. Material coating technologies are coming a long way.Especially in the tooling for metal removal. The coatings, have to handle high heat,and not have the material weld to it, as well as work with little to no coolant. The latest stuff in Europe is to work without the conventional liquid coolant. Anyway, I am sure that some of these coating technologies would be quite good for engine parts. There are DLC, diamond like coating on inserts for cutting ali, but also these coatings are making their way in model engines. It is only a matter of time and more research before they will become more commonly used in larger engines. Some model engines are now using an anodising process for cylinder liners, instead of hard chrome, but I have not seen a real high performance model engine with the anodised liners yet.OS have a coating on crankpins that seems to last for ever and not wear out. Some Russian engines have ceramic materials for things like gudgeon pins, being lighter and seemingly ,are not breaking. At about 1/2 the weight of a steel pin with a hardness way higher than any steel and a lower friction value. For all that though, they don't seem to have any significant advantage power wise, but maybe have a longer small end rod life.
Neil

The upper cylinder lubricants were mainly MoS2 Molybdenum disulphide. The oils got better they likely weren't needed anyway. but it is a very good boundary extreme situation lubricant, With hard to replicate qualities
They used to get pushed hard here for LPG vehicles but that might just have been more salesmanship. Pretty sure most in NZ over 35 you can remember the 173/186/202 Holden (or whatever it was) idling for hours on end with no oil gimmick at the A@P shows

**trevor amos** · 24th October 2015, 20:23

Can it true that putting more oil put through an engine brings an increase in engine power, is it even a realistic proposition, it certainly appears counter intuitive?
I currently race an ex GP TZ250, and am a “fly-in tuner” for FactoryPro tuning and attend the nation-wide AMA road race nationals.
I have done some extensive testing, on one of our Low Inertia Eddy current dynos, with my 250 and have realized a power gain when going from 24 to 16-1 oil/fuel ratio.
A couple of key points; our dyno uses an integrated 4 gas analyzer and the dyno will hold the engine at a given rpm and record hp and all four gasses and then step up to the next rev point. It is therefore, very accurate and offers a comprehensive information down load.
I ran the bike at 24-1 and adjusted the carbs until the engine made the best hp at every point, in 1k rpm increments, until the CO was 4.5% and residual oxygen was 5.9%. The tests were then repeated with the oil content at 16-1; again, the carburation, jets and needles, were adjusted until CO and oxygen came in at the same optimum readings. At this point the power gain was 2hp!
During the tests, the initial swop over in oil content, from 24-16, caused the power to drop, the carb adjustments indicated brought about the power improvement when the same gas output readings were achieved. The oil used was Castrol A747, modern, powerful ignitions will happily fire rich oil ratios, and the benefits of better ring sealing and cooler temps can be realized.
So the answer to the question must be , yes!

I found this piece in an American bike magazine a few years back, so it would seem appropriate to post it here and it seems to confirm what Wob was suggesting?

Trevor

**Frits Overmars** · 25th October 2015, 00:17

Originally Posted by Lightbulb

They used to sell upper cylinder lubricants for valves and rings years ago for 4t engines. I guess with everyone on the make it burn cleaner thing, was phased or outlawed due to emissions.

Outlawed or not, it is common practice to run a 80:1 premix in World Superbike and Supersport foul-strokes.

Material coating technologies are coming a long way... DLC, diamond like coating

DLC may look promising but there are two limitations. First of all, the surface to be treated must be super smooth, otherwise you would just be creating a diamond file.
Secondly, DLC is still temperature-limited. The safe border is moved up year by year, but I still would not use it in places where the temperature exceeds 300°C.
By the way, The C in DLC stands for Carbon, not for Coating.

Some Russian engines have ceramic materials for things like gudgeon pins, being lighter and seemingly ,are not breaking. At about 1/2 the weight of a steel pin with a hardness way higher than any steel and a lower friction value. l

Those pins are among the things I'd like to try.

**MotleyCrue** · 25th October 2015, 03:25

If 16:1 is better than 24:1 and 30:1, by all accounts, then the logical step would be to try more and more oil yet until there is no gain. No doubt someone has and maybe 16:1 is the optimum result from such tests. Model airplane fuel is what 5:1 bean oil or so.

A good ignition would be desired when lots of oil is used and there have been questions about just how good or not good some of the 2 stroke ignitions really are in comparison to automotive racing ignitions. Maybe a better ignition would lead to an optimum ratio with more oil than 16:1.

Anybody tried more oil than 16:1 ?

I run about 70:1 in both 2 strokes and 4 strokes. Personally I would never have any incentive to run 16:1 for a duration of time, but I am curious if more oil than 16:1 would do anything good for short bursts where races are just seconds long and where plug fouling would never be a concern.

**gamma500** · 25th October 2015, 03:41

Hey,

friend of mine asked me to build a pipe for his yz250 2005(I think that its the same engine in newer ones).

Before I start taking the engine apart, does anyone here have the engmod2t model of this engine already?

If you got the files and are willing to share pls pm me.

**Flettner** · 25th October 2015, 07:20

Originally Posted by gamma500

Hey,

friend of mine asked me to build a pipe for his yz250 2005(I think that its the same engine in newer ones).

Before I start taking the engine apart, does anyone here have the engmod2t model of this engine already?

If you got the files and are willing to share pls pm me.

Just send me the gearbox