ESE's works engine tuner

[Flettner]

I've heard this a million times from different sources but I haven't heard a good explanation. What is the reason they suck ? They have been in business a long time and still sell lots of pistons, is it just certain applications they aren't good for ?

I used to buy a Wisco piston for my 350 Kawasaki, it was a prolite type, cost a bit too but it did the job. After a few pistons used (ordered on the same part number), a standard pistons turned up, not prolite, same price. Wisco said "get stuffed" thats all we will supply now and you will have to pay the same price, to bad. So I turned them into prolite myself with the milling machine. Then I find Wossner, only make prolite type, cheaper, available without waiting and seem to work well. I can order them from the factory in lots of ten, even cheaper still! Won't catch me dealing with Wisco again until they change their attitude, and make a decient product again.

[wobbly]

The Wiseco Prolite range was a big step forward for the company, where they finally changed the forging material.
But the bottom line still is that they will 4 corner seize instantly if run at the minimum clearance recommended, and if run even slightly loose
they rock badly in the bore ( alot of taper,top to bottom ) then shrink insanely.
This then of course doesnt help the ring stay true in the bore and you quickly get blowby darkening the area under the groove.
Recently ( last 18 months ) the company has been groomed for corporate takeover.
The cash its worth comes down to the bottom line profit margin on sales, so they have deleted nearly all CNC ops on the basic forging.
The pistons are now way heavyer,more expensive and still have the issues explained above.
They used to do small run specials,but are now not interested.
Not even close to a Wossner in any respect.

Wallace, I suspect the complete opposite to what you said - when buggering about at low rpm trying to run it in,it has way too much advance for that part throttle
operation.
When we set up a race bike on the dyno the lower midrange always responds way better to winding in the throttle, with plenty of advance.
And this level of advance is only safe if you are accelerating hard into it - ask TeeZee,he has seen this and its serious effects on the engine when just chugging about for no good reason.

[TZ350]

Wallace, I suspect the complete opposite to what you said - when buggering about at low rpm trying to run it in,it has way too much advance for that part throttle
operation.

When we set up a race bike on the dyno the lower midrange always responds way better to winding in the throttle, with plenty of advance.

And this level of advance is only safe if you are accelerating hard into it - ask TeeZee,he has seen this and its serious effects on the engine when just chugging about for no good reason.

...................

[Grumph]

Whilst I respect Wob's experience with Wiseco pistons, and agree broadly with what he's saying, I suspect the target market for Wiseco now is mainly 4T pistons. I've used a lot of their 4T forged pistons over the years and will continue to use them as long as the price stays reasonable.

I'd also suspect that Wossner and others have seen a vulnerability in the 2T market where Wiseco is concerned and jumped in with a more up to date product.
Fair enough, that's the American way of business. As consumers we should be aware of it and take advantage.

[JanBros]

Once I bought Woessner's for my KR1S because they were the only ones that had an oversize.
200km's later I cut off my engine because suddenly it made a slightly different sound. restarted it and it would only run on 1 cylinder.

after getting my bike home on a trailer and dismantling my engine, I found that the bridge between C-port and the (useless ?) port underneath it (running KR1 cylinders, and that port disappeard in the later KR1S cylinders). didn't know why, thought it must have been bad campfering so I ordered a knew one.
it was only when reassembling that engine that I figured out the problem.

apparently Woessner put's the ring pins "somewhere in the region where they are supposed to be" , between B and C ports. And you have to take that "somewhere" lteraly ! I had 3 woessner's at that moment and no pins was exactly where they were supposed to be ! the damaged one was the worst of the 3 : the pins where 0.5cm!!! closer to each other than on an original. the pins from the other piston in the engine were a bit better but the ring was also already damaged, from 1 side the ring end was already gone, the other side bent.
I ran tuned cylinders (done by Heiden tuning at that time, a dutch company) and checked if in an original cylinder, the ring ends would also snap into the C-port and they did, si I took all 3 woessner's, an original piston and an original cylinder to the Belgian importer and explained him the problem. He agreed with me Woessner was 100% at fault and I agreed that he would ship everything to them so they could make piston's with the pins in the correct position.

Only many month's later they responded that it wasn't a problem, that they never had problem's with them and that they could do nothing for me !!!!! while it was so obvious what the problem was, and that their 3 piston's proved that they putted the pin's "at random somewhere where they should be".

The Belgian importer also wasn't happy with that response, so they took back the new uninstalled Woessner and offered me any 2 piston's of my choice in return for the 2 bad/damged ones. As they also import the Wiseco's, I finaly went for YZ125 '89 piston's (had to adjust my engine because of the 2mm lower deck height) because many manufacturers make them and are available in oversizes. And up to date they are still working wonderfully and show only normal wear.

Never again do I put Woessner's in any engine (not even if someone would pay me to do it, just out of principle) and my advice to anyone who would want to use them, is to check the pin positions and refuse the piston's if they are not exactly where they need to be !
btw : I never got back the original (used, but that doesn't matter) piston . to me they are

[TZ350]

I have been wiring up the bike, there is one shed load of wire on this thing.



EFI pressure gauge, RH switch is for the fuel pump, it is pretty handy to be able to turn the EFI fuel pump off so as to be able to clear a flooded engine. RH gauge is the det counter, LH ignition switch and LH gauge is a Volt/10A Ammeter. I have 8A available from the generator to play with so it's pretty handy to be able to see the electrical load at any time while testing the bike on the dyno.

Now that I have begun to get somewhere with installing the Ignetech digital ignition and Ecotrons EFI systems. I have started to think about what we could do like power valve servo and rpm controled auto gear change quick shifter.



Some time ago Frits posted an idea on how to reduce over run deto and cylinder overheating by lowering the pipes internal operating pressure in the over rev zone.



I made my own version of a pipe pressure blead from a model aero engine carburettor body and gave it a try.

Unfortunately it was only hand controlled and I could not get an overrun picture but it did show some interesting pre peak power results.



Blue is with it closed and the pipe at its normal internal pressure and red is with it open and some of the pressure bleed off. A surprisingly useful extra 500 rpm at the lower end and another surprise was that it was not that noisy.

I am sure that once it can be automatically controlled by the IgniTech, say closing at 10,500 rpm and opening again at 12,500 it would add some usefull spread and reduce over run deto and maybe even extend the over rev a bit.

500rpm at the bottom plus another 500 at the top and a reduction in cylinder overheating would be very handy in anyone's books.

So a pipe pressure bleeder looks like a useful option if you are looking for ways to extend the power spread and avoid (reduce) over heating from hot exhaust gases back flowing down the transfer ducts during over rev when blowdown is time limited and the internal pipe pressure is high.



If the EFI thing does not work out then I have this 36mm smooth bore EI Blue Magnum carb with home made adjustable power jet and modified to be 24mm compliant if its measured according to MNZ's latest misguided carb clarification.

Previous tests have shown this carb to work quite well and whether its on a air cooled 125 or my new soon to be released water cooled 110 there is every reason to think 30+ is possible with it. The limitations will be port and blowdown STA not the 24mm restriction imposed by the old 24mm equivalent rule.

[Martin1981]

to me they are

A German RGV250 Tuner i once talked to also was not very impressed by the wössner pistons. he complained about too much shrinking after only a short time of use and uses only wiseco after that. but who knows if it really was wössners fault.

[adegnes]

500rpm at the bottom plus another 500 at the top and a reduction in cylinder overheating would be very handy in anyone's books.

So a pipe pressure bleeder looks like a useful option if you are looking for ways to extend the power spread and avoid (reduce) over heating from hot exhaust gases back flowing down the transfer ducts during over rev when blowdown is time limited and the internal pipe pressure is high.

I know atac type systems have been discussed before, but anyway here's "jbot"s experience with it, "The Boner".
http://www.mopedarmy.com/forums/read...3661232,page=1
(remember to choose "flat view")

Great guy! His got his own robot band too, "capturedbyrobots".

[adegnes]

Something weird/interesting:

I had another go with my bike on the roller yesterday. Now with the gas/xylene mix. It started and seemed to run fine, but didn't want to rev much higher than 12k under load. Max temps where low, CHT 280°F, EGT 1035°F. It did not sound/act rich.
Could this be the fuel once more? Maybe most of the xylene is just passing through without contributing much to the combustion? I'm basically running lean, but not hot cause the unburnt fuel cools the chamber/piston?

I'm ditching the homebrew fuel.

[peewee]

wob ,frits im still kicking around the idea of a electric fan on the back side of the rad. theyre 652g according to the spec sheet so I was just planning to use one to keep weight at a minimum. would it be best mounted at the top where the hot water enters or down at the bottom to make cool water even colder ?

[TZ350]

wob ,frits im still kicking around the idea of a electric fan on the back side of the rad. theyre 652g according to the spec sheet so I was just planning to use one to keep weight at a minimum. would it be best mounted at the top where the hot water enters or down at the bottom to make cool water even colder ?

My pick is the top where the water is hottest as more thermal energy is lost the greater the thermal difference is, ie bulk energy is lost more rapidly from a hotter surface than a cooler one.

[TZ350]

I know atac type systems have been discussed before, but anyway here's "jbot"s experience with it, "The Boner". http://www.mopedarmy.com/forums/read...3661232,page=1 (remember to choose "flat view")

Hi Adegnes I am going to check out his band. I tried to join mopedarmy but all my create account attempts failed. They kept telling me I had not entered a password, how many passwords do they want? Anyway probably get it sorted when they are back at work.

My pipe pressure bleed is a little different to an ATAC valve/chamber. My aim is to lower the actual working pressure inside the chamber about 1000 rpm both sides of maximum torque.

Below peak torque it has an effect like an ATAC chamber, by reducing the disruptive effect of the pipe and above peak torque the lower pressure allows blowdown to be more effective and reduces the amount of residual hot exhaust gas being pushed back down the transfers. Any way that is what I am hoping for.

Hope to get registered on the mopedarmy site so I can get a good look at "the boner".

[TZ350]

Something weird/interesting:

I had another go with my bike on the roller yesterday. Now with the gas/xylene mix. It started and seemed to run fine, but didn't want to rev much higher than 12k under load. Max temps where low, CHT 280°F, EGT 1035°F. It did not sound/act rich.

Could this be the fuel once more? Maybe most of the xylene is just passing through without contributing much to the combustion? I'm basically running lean, but not hot cause the unburnt fuel cools the chamber/piston?

I had a similar problem, motor lean and cold when I was running Methanol. The cure was to blend the fuel with Acetone to reduce the fuels cooling effect. I had to get the motor to run warmer so the fuel actually evaporated. Maybe you will need to blend your fuel too, but you would think 280F - 138C would be warm enough ....

[husaberg]

Hope to get registered on the mopedarmy site so I can get a good look at "the boner".

Oh dear................

[marsheng]

I seem to have lost a post

Recently ( last 18 months ) the company has been groomed for corporate takeover.
The cash its worth comes down to the bottom line profit margin on sales, so they have deleted nearly all CNC ops on the basic forging.

I presume you are talking about Wisco here.

Wallace, I suspect the complete opposite to what you said - when buggering about at low rpm trying to run it in,it has way too much advance for that part throttle
operation.

I was running between 5-8k, basically 3/4 power all the time during the beak in period. The power seems to have come in a bit earlier than the last cylinder by 750 RPM . Maybe I should have changed the retard point. My mistake, not enough dyno time before getting to the track.

I do have an new old stock Wisco piston here with a Dykes ring. Maybe worth a try.

Thanks to everyone. This forum just eggs me on to do more. Hopefully I'm not too annoying.

Cheers Wallace