ESE's works engine tuner

[manolis]

Hello Breesy.

You write:
“have you managed to knock up a working example yet?”

Not yet.

There are other projects of pattakon having, for the moment, higher priority.
It is also the fact that the PatTwo engine is a quite “fresh” project: it is less than 21 months old.

This is why I ask for the opinions and, preferably, for the objections of the experts in the 2-stroke engines.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[manolis]

Hello WilDun.

You write:
“I'm not really sure if the guys on this thread want it to be used for anything other than "real world" Bucket Race engine experiences, experiments and solutions etc.
I could be wrong of course - Maybe TZ could advise us or keep us straight here?”


As I wrote to Breeze, there is not yet a working prototype.

However the PatTwo is a quite simple project.



In the above animation the yellow “disk” throttle-valve is at the “open” position (in the animation in my previous post it was in the close position), the two spaces (above and below the separator) communicate, and the reed valve opens only for a small percentage of the time, i.e. the engine runs at partial load with quite small pumping loss.


Take a look at it and let me know how difficult it is to be done, i.e. to turn to a “real world” thing for Race engine experiences.

What I see looking at it, is just a longer piston with a separator/throttle valve inside it.
Way simpler than a sleeve liner project.
Maybe simpler than the modification of the radiator mentioned in post #23,483.

Make an estimation:
Starting with a conventional racing 2-stroke, how many days are required for the modification to PatTwo?
More than Two?


Think the new parameters that get into the play with the PatTwo design.
It is not about a small improvement, it is more about a breakthrough. Everything changes.


I understand it is “too unconventional” and spoils the way some member of this forum use to think. However they can simply omit / ignore such posts and proceed to the next ones.

On the other hand, everything used today for “"real world" Bucket Race engine experiences” (as you set it), was yesterday nothing more than a "promising" project.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[JanBros]

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/6872...motor_2.0.html

[WilDun]

Hello WilDun.


As I wrote to Breeze, there is not yet a working prototype.

However the PatTwo is a quite simple project.


I understand it is “too unconventional” and spoils the way some member of this forum use to think. However they can simply omit / ignore such posts and proceed to the next ones.

On the other hand, everything used today for “"real world" Bucket Race engine experiences” (as you set it), was yesterday nothing more than a "promising" project.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

OK. Manolis, A word to the wise:-
I have no quarrel at all with your inventions, nor do I find them all that hard to understand (and I like them). but I only wanted to point you in a direction where they might be gratefully received and appreciated by many people without the chance of having to cross swords with anyone, but as I always say, I could be wrong!

If you press the "reply with quote" button in order to reply, then delete the surplus stuff (but leave the word "quote" inside the brackets at the beginning and the end of the part you want to quote - then it will save repeating everything in your answer and keep things tidy, (most of us tripped up on that one at the beginning).

I do still think it might be wise to go to the other relevant threads

[Flettner]

Hello Manolis, what is your priority? Patent ideas so no one else can use them unless they pay you?
Patents are generally an amalgamation of other peoples ideas rearranged or in some cases just plain out stolen. Just be sure you are not here to take and not give, thankyou.
Fortunately (or perhaps unfortunately) people on this forum are only to happy to show off their ideas with not a thought as to financial gain.

[WilDun]

Hello Manolis, what is your priority?

:.......

[manolis]

Hello WilDun.

You write:
“If you press the "reply with quote" button in order to reply, then delete the surplus stuff (but leave the word "quote" inside the brackets at the beginning and the end of the part you want to quote - then it will save repeating everything in your answer and keep things tidy, (most of us tripped up on that one at the beginning).”

I know how to reply with quote.
However I prefer my own way.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[manolis]

Hello Flettner.

You write:
“what is your priority? Patent ideas so no one else can use them unless they pay you?”


It is more than that.

In the last posts they were mentioned the names Harry Ryger and Basile van Rooyen.

First thing they did? They applied for a patent to protect their intellectual property.

A patent was granted to Basile van Rooyen (US8,683,964, April 1 2014, here is the link if you want to read it: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/8,683,964 ) for his CITS engine.

A patent is not yet granted to Harry Ryger who still keeps his project secret. Think why. I guess it is a way to protect his (intellectual) property.


Look how the patenting system works:

In his patent Basile van Rooyen defines exactly what his idea is, and what are the characteristics that distinguish his invention from the state-of-the-art. A specialized in the field examiner of the USPTO searched worldwide for relative documents and examined whether the invention complies with all necessary criteria in order a US-patent to be granted.

The granting of a patent means automatically two things:
1. the inventor has the exclusivity in making and selling his invention for some 20 years (it depends on the country),
2. the patent (which, by the way, has to provide all the necessary information for a skilled in the art to realize it) opens to the public.

Reading his patent and visiting his web site, one can learn several things.
And he can think different ways of realization to erase the limitations of the CITS engine.

The basic idea is good, but several of Basile van Rooyen’s limitations are unnecessary.

For instance, why to use a Vee engine when you can achieve better results with one only cylinder?

Why to apply the idea only on engines having even number of cylinders?

Why to have a fluctuating total volume under the two pistons, when you can achieve a really constant volume with fewer parts.

Why to have an additional external throttle valve for the control of the engine when with the inner throttle you can have it all?

Etc, etc.

This is the way the PatTwo project started.



And don’t think the PatTwo is bad for the CITS project and for Basile.

Quote from http://citsengine.com.au/investor-information/
“$4.0m is sought, to provide the funding of the final phase of the technology by world specialists, and for marketing the data by royalty agreements with the world’ s engine manufacturers, over a few years.”

He did not answer to my mesages, however I suppose that for one and a half years Basile van Rooyen knows that there is a competitor of his CITS engine and so he can protect himself and his investors from spending money (they say for some millions) for nothing..



But patenting (a great tool of the modern world, with its own limitations and weaknesses) is more than just protecting or making money.


Suppose you have an idea that seems good to you and you want a second “serious” opinion.
And that you are ready to pay for it.

First of all you have to write down / to draw your idea, to define what is your idea, at what it is better than the existing ones. It sounds simple. Ask those who tried it.

Then you apply for a patent, you pay the Application Fee and the Search and Examination Fees (230 pounds in the UK-IPO (United Kingdom patent office), US730$ for the USPTO (USA patent office)), and then you expect a highly specialized in the specific field Examiner (say a wizard in the specific field, the same for Honda, the same for GM, the same for VW, the same for an independent inventor) to look seriously at your idea / invention, to search everything already published and to certify about the novelty of your idea, about the industrial applicability of your idea and about having or not an inventive step your idea (i.e. about being non-obvious to the skilled in the art).

There is a big difference when you apply for a patent than when you ask for the opinion of the members of a technical forum like this.

In the first case you pay for a specific service and you demand serious Search and Examination.

In the second case anyone one can say anything, relative or not. See how many "strictly technical" replies there are so far.


So why I am asking here for opinions and objections?

Because there is always the hope that one member (just one is enough) will read and will understand and will respond with his true technical objections / thoughts. A second eye is, sometimes, invaluable.


By the way, it’s not so easy to take a patent in a serious patent office, especially for a “general” (i.e. not too much specialized) invention / idea.

For instance, take the PatRoVa rotary valve project of pattakon (more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatRoVa.htm ) which has a higher priority than the PatTwo project.

It is a rotary valve wherein the total force acting on the valve (no matter how high is the pressure into the combustion chamber) is permanently zero. It is a breakthrough. It changes the play. However only few really understand it, so far.


Sorry for the long post.
The hope is that some young engineers and mechanics will read it and will make questions to clarify anything they like.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[WilDun]

Hello WilDun
I know how to reply with quote.
However I prefer my own way.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Ok. - I think that statement says something.

[Flettner]

So Manolis, you will pay that one person on this forum that will help you make your millions with their advice? This is a "free for all" forum not an ideas mine.

[ken seeber]

For the sliding cylinder engine (bit of a story in the Foundry section), we have to make up an exhaust. Three in fact. Where does one start? I guess EngMod or some other packages could help, but for a simple starter, Frits has an empirical design method.
For such a “blank sheet of canvas” such as the slider, this seems a really good way to start. Even if it satisfies the 80:20 rule, I’ll be happy. Even if it shuts the noise level down, I’ll be happier.
So, here’s the latest version. Bit of 2D layout work, create .dxf files, off to the laser cutter, then some rolling and probably shitty TIG welding.

[crbbt]

when you're supplying two exhausts with one cylinder. do you use half capacity in the formula?

[manolis]

Hello Flettner.

You write:
“you will pay that one person on this forum that will help you make your millions with their advice? This is a "free for all" forum not an ideas mine.”


What is wrong when a guy like Harry Ryger or like Basil van Rooyen (both are independent inventors) tries to protect his intellectual property?

How could (without having a patent) an independent inventor say to Honda, Yamaha, GM, VW etc “do not use this idea / solution / invention in your engines because it is mine”.

What is your problem when Harry Ryger presents (by his “partners”) the advantages of his invention in a “free for all” forum like this (and in many others, worldwide).
Let me help you: there is a fundamental problem because Harry Ryger presents the advantages of his design keeping secret his design! He could even file for a patent for such a great idea (i.e. “how to present the advantages of something, keeping this something secret”) . . .

Did you have the same objections when the engine of Harry Ryger were presented(?) in this “free for all” forum? (not the engine, the huge improvements his engine will bring).




Seriously now,
for those thinking to protect their ideas (intellectual property) but do not know how and how much it costs in money and time.

I wrote in my previous post about the cost of patenting a new idea / invention in the USA and in the United Kingdom patent Offices.

Besides the cost, there is another important parameter, the time required.

So let me describe a typical patenting.


Suppose John Smith has thought about a new mechanism that improves the internal combustion engines.

He searches in the Internet (including the patent offices libraries with the millions of published applications and granted patents) to find out if his idea / invention is really new and how much better it appears than the prior art.

If the chances are good, he decides to proceed with the patenting.

Now John Smith, who lives in Europe, has to write down his invention and to draw it.

He makes two PDF files, one with the Description, the Claims (the most important part of the patent application) and the Abstract, and one with the drawings.

A good tactic is to rewrite the description after finishing with the claims, so that all claims to be well supported by the description and the drawings. Because the core of a patent is its claims.

Patenting is quite different than giving blueprints and details.
It is about providing the general characteristics that distinguish an idea / invention from the existing ones.
So, for instance, it is completely meaningless to put dimensions in the drawings (unless they are essential).

The best guide for writing a patent is to download some recent patents in the same field from some patent offices.


SO FAR THE IDEA MUST BE SECRET.
Completely secret.
Otherwise a valid patent cannot be granted.


After finishing with the two PDF files, John Smith files his patent on-line to, say, the USA patent Office.
It takes no more than 15 minutes.
For a medium size patent with less than 3 independent claims and less than 20 claims in total, the filing cost is US730$ (including the Search and Examination fees).
John Smith pays with his credit / debit card and he receives an electronic receipt that a patent application under the specific title was filed to the US-PTO, indicating the size and name of the PDF files filed and the date and time of the filing.
All these on-line. Electronically. No letters. No paper. No printings.

A few days later John receives a letter from the US-PTO. It is a written receipt and, if there are any formal problems the applicant is requested to correct them.

The same happen in the case the patent was filed on-line in the UK-IPO instead of the US-PTO. Only the cost changes, which is 230 pounds.


If everything is OK, the invention” gets into the “patent pending” condition. It is not really protected (John Smith cannot yet prevent someone from making and selling it), however the inventor can freely present it, talk about it, look for investors etc.

For the next months and years (3+ years is the average time between the initial filing and the final granting of a patent) the Examiner “charged” with the patent application of John Smith, communicates with John Smith and asks for corrections etc.
The most important communication is the Search and Examination report wherein the Examiner gives the most relative documents found (patents, applications for patents, articles, publications, books etc) and also the reasons, if any, making the invention not good for granting a patent.
John Smith responds in every letter, into the required time limits, with the required corrections and objections.


About 18 months after the initial filing, the patent application is published.
Any individual worldwide has access to the published application.
And every other patent office, worldwide, has access to the patent application.
Even if the inventor asks for not publishing his patent application for the public, even then the rest patent offices will have access to his patent application at the end of the 18 months period.

And this is important

Now you can understand why, until 18 months after the initial filing, it is not possible a strong patent to be granted to John Smith.

Why?

Because a guy in the other end of the world (say in New Zeland) filed the same, or a very similar, invention just one day (or just one second) earlier than John Smith.

So, John Smith will liv in doubt at least for the next two years.


Till now it was not required neither a patent attorney nor translations (provided the filing is in English). I.e. it is supposed that John Smith is capable to respond to the requirements of the patent office without external help by experts / professionals.


Suppose everything goes OK and a patent is to be granted to John Smith for his invention by the UK-IPO. A letter is sent to John giving the patent number and the date of publication of the patent.
Only four years after the initial filing (not granting, filing) of his application John Smith has to pay again: it is the maintenance fee to the UK-IPO (70 pounds for the fifth year).
In order to keep his patent in force, John Smith has to pay each year the respective maintenance cost (which increases as the years pass).

Suppose everything is OK and a patent is granted by the US-PTO, too. In this case John smith has to pay US480$ as Issue Fee before the granting. Only 3.5 years after the granting (not the filing, the granting) of the US patent John has to pay again, this time the first maintenance fee which is US800$. Another 3.5 years later he has to pay another maintenance fee, this time US1,200$ to keep his patent “in force” for the next 3.5 years.


The initial filing is quite important not only because it allows the inventor to show / to unveil his invention, but also because it sets a period of time of 12 months during which John Smith can file a patent application for the same invention to any other country (or patent office) using as PRIORITY DATE the date of his first filing. Even if John files for a patent in Australia 11 months after the initial filing in the US-PTO, the “actual” date is the initial filing day (provided John claims the PRIORITY of his original application in the USA).

If John Smith has “big expectations” from his invention, he can, before the end of the 12 months period mentioned above, file for the same invention a PCT (WIPO) application (cost: some US2,500$) which gives him a 30 months grace period (always measured from the initial filing date) during which he can file for a national patent in any other patent office. He takes a Search and Examination report and buys time (because the filing in non-English speaking countries (like China, Japan, North Korea etc) needs both: translation of the patent and a patent attorney which means a lot of cost).



In the previous I presented the basics of my experience in patenting so that the young engineers / mechanics of this forum have not to learn by their own mistakes (i.e. the hard way).

A “free forum” like this is the ideal way to share such knowledge.


And if anybody wants more details, he can ask me in this thread or he can e-mail me (contact details at www.pattakon.com ) , keeping always in mind that an idea / invention has to be kept completely secret at least until the filing of an application for a patent.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[Flettner]

I've done patents before Manolis, I know how it works.

[Bert]

Once again I find myself confused with the intent of others...
There is a place and a time, but most of this page (by volume) doesn't fit with the purpose of this thread (maybe another thread might be more suitable)... But at least I know more about Patents without leaving my fav bucket thread.

So, Rob what's happening in the ESE workshop?

Have you run up the new 110cc???