ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

The text of a letter which also includes links to Husaburgs and Yow Lings posts that I have sent seeking some clarification of the rules.

Re posted here for transparency.

""
Some clarification required please.

Independently powered accessories like water pumps have been used on Buckets for a long time. I propose using a small independently powered accessory (fan) driven by a small petrol motor.

Some maintain that independent battery power is ok but independent petrol powered devices need to be included in the bikes engine capacity, it seems for no better reason than it’s another internal combustion motor and not a stored energy device like a battery motor.

I think any accessory should be able to be driven independently of the bikes motor, or to be fair to everyone, everything including all things electrical should be powered directly by the bikes motor.

I guess the rules never really anticipated independently powered accessories but battery-powered motors have become accepted and the concept of independently petrol-powered accessories like a cooling fan is a new concept.

Would you please shed some clarification on how the rules should be interpreted regarding independently powered accessories.
Thanks
""

[Yow Ling]

The text of a letter which also includes links to Husaburgs and Yow Lings posts that I have sent seeking some clarification of the rules.

Re posted here for transparency.

""
Some clarification required please.

Independently powered accessories like water pumps have been used on Buckets for a long time. I propose using a small independently powered accessory (fan) driven by a small petrol motor.

Some maintain that independent battery power is ok but independent petrol powered devices need to be included in the bikes engine capacity, it seems for no better reason than it’s another internal combustion motor and not a stored energy device like a battery motor.

I think any accessory should be able to be driven independently of the bikes motor, or to be fair to everyone, everything including all things electrical should be powered directly by the bikes motor.

I guess the rules never really anticipated independently powered accessories but battery-powered motors have become accepted and the concept of independently petrol-powered accessories like a fan is a new concept.

Would you please shed some clarification on how the rules should be interpreted regarding independently powered accessories.
Thanks
""

Why not fit a model aeroplane jet engine to your bucket ? You could connect the shaft to the waterpump, how convenient just have to duct the exhaust somewhere.
Why not use a 250cc engine , just uncouple the cranks use 125cc to run the geartrain and use the other to run your generator or your fan, thats almost what you are suggesting just in different packaging

Battery power is a finite resource on a bike , petrol is a virtually unlimited source of energy, i think the battery blower is fine as it will probably exceed the power available and then need to get additional power off the crank, which crank is in question.

[TZ350]

I like your thinking, you must be a Bucket Racer.

Why not fit a model aeroplane jet engine to your bucket ? You could connect the shaft to the waterpump, how convenient just have to duct the exhaust somewhere.

But to be fair, its not what I have been saying.

My case is, that if it does not turn the back wheel or propel the bike forward it need not be counted as part of the bikes motor.

There is nothing in the rules that say the bikes motor has to run the accessories and I am seeking clarification on that.

I have posted everything including links to opinion that disagrees with mine in the interests of transparency and now you can put your case too and assist with clarification from the right people, nothing hidden.

[Ocean1]

This could get interesting.

What's the stoichiometric limit on pressure for a E85 fuelled, direct injected four stroke with an independently powered blower?

[chrisc]

You guys sound like the freaking FIA on F1

[TZ350]

This could get interesting. What's the stoichiometric limit on pressure for a E85 fuelled, direct injected four stroke with an independently powered blower?

It has been thought about, we have a few 100cc engines and some 4V water cooled heads in the shed somewhere.

[bucketracer]

Why not use a 250cc engine , just uncouple the cranks use 125cc to run the geartrain and use the other to run your generator or your fan, thats almost what you are suggesting.

Not as silly as its meant to sound, would it be legal? from the bikes point of view, its only being powered by a 125cc engine, the back wheel would not know about the other cylinder.

So do Buckets now have to conform to something only ever seen before and traditional and new ideas are forbidden. I didn't see that rule change slip through, must have been a Trogen Horse from the south.

[Yow Ling]

Not as silly as its meant to sound, would it be legal, from the bikes point of view, its only being powered by a 125cc engine, the back wheel would not know about the other cylinder.

So do Buckets now have to conform to something only ever seen before and traditional and new ideas are forbidden. I didn't see that rule change slip through, must have been a Trogen Horse from the south.

Who changed the rules? What does 125cc capacity mean to you? 125cc or 125 cc plus some more if we want?
The 450s are leagal in F3 because the 4th cylinder does not make any power, your extra cylinder is making usefull power, why not run the fan off a pulley on the end of the crank?

[bucketracer]

... your extra cylinder is making usefull power, why not run the fan off a pulley on the end of the crank?

No need if you can power it some other way, the only question is, does the bikes own motor have to run all the accessories too, including the electrics or can they be powered some other way.

Storing energy in an accumulator at home then using it during a race to re leave the bikes engine from the burden of turning its own water pump or making its own sparks cheating? does anyone do that? is it legal? I don't see it sanctioned in the rules anywhere.

[Yow Ling]

No need if you can power it some other way, the only question is, does the bikes own motor have to run all the accessories too, including the electrics or can they be powered some other way.

Storing energy in an accumulator at home then using it during a race to re leave the bikes engine from the burden of turning its own water pump or making its own sparks cheating? does anyone do that? is it legal? I don't see it sanctioned in the rules anywhere.

Nothing wrong with what you are saying there, How much displacment does the accumulator have ? None

Capacity for F4 2 stroke is 125cc or 130 with overbores, rulebook doesnt say in 1 cylinder , 2 cylinders or in 1 or 2 engines the rule simply states the cubic capacity for aircooled F4 2 stroke bikes, somehow you have come up with a loophole, pretend the other motor doesnt exist and doesnt affect the overall capacity of the bike its fitted to. I think Im over this Tintin is on Tv

[richban]

Who changed the rules? What does 125cc capacity mean to you? 125cc or 125 cc plus some more if we want?
The 450s are leagal in F3 because the 4th cylinder does not make any power, your extra cylinder is making usefull power, why not run the fan off a pulley on the end of the crank?

So Rob how is that new frame going? Have you decided on the geometry yet. length rake trail?

[Grumph]

This could get interesting.

What's the stoichiometric limit on pressure for a E85 fuelled, direct injected four stroke with an independently powered blower?

Lower than that for a blown four stroke with both port injection and injection into the blower intake to cool the charge....First rule of using fuels with high latent heat of evaporation is to use it to cool the charge. The TQ which changed the speedway rules on blown motors had this exact setup and ran happily at around 30psi boost....

[Ocean1]

Lower than that for a blown four stroke with both port injection and injection into the blower intake to cool the charge....First rule of using fuels with high latent heat of evaporation is to use it to cool the charge. The TQ which changed the speedway rules on blown motors had this exact setup and ran happily at around 30psi boost....

Hmmm. The pressure limit is then defined by pre-ignition?

Which a direct timed injection need not worry about, eh?

Besides, if the above flies then we're allowed a free powered intake cooler as well!

[jasonu]

.

I think the engine capacity rule only applys to the engine that moves the bike. I will see if we can get some clarification.

Good luck with that one...

[husaberg]

Rob while i can't fault your transparency, I can't see how it will fly, the other accessories are either powered by the engines generating circuits or by total loss from a battery. All theses are a parasitic drag in one form or another. I can't think of any racing bike or car that had an auxiliary petrol power source. sure you could say you would be lugging the weight but it is an Independent power source of relatively infinite duration (until the fuel runs out) as far as i can see the only reason it is being considered is to lessen the loses of running it from the legal sized power source. This should set off warning signs in itself

If it had been legal or nearly legal you can bet it would have been tried by Frank Williams already.

why not use a 12 volt boat bilge blower if you don't want to drive a std fan off the flywheel.....They can be quite high output and are 12volt.
http://www.absolutemarine.co.nz/products/?id=4484

The generating lag or extra drag or weight of the batteries is the price one has to pay for such accessories........
I actually thought of the model aircraft engine as they are small but i guess they all run illegal fuel

However on a different note entirely there is a political tactic of offering up grossly unpalatable law change in hope of great public backlash in-order to pass an unpalatable law that will be seen then as the less of two evils.......the offer-er is seen as relenting to what they want and submitting to the will of the people............ I are of course not saying this has been happening with any proposed rule changes of course as i honestly sincerely doubt they are......................