ESE's works engine tuner

[Gradella23]

Yamaha had seen the results gained by Harold Bartol who made his own version of a Honda style cylinder using the Czech made CNC anemometric flow visualization machine.
He was running Yamaha's 125GP program that was embarrassingly slow , but even though his cylinder was designed to fit directly onto the Yamaha case he was not allowed to use his stuff on the factory bike.
He showed me the dyno sheets of his cylinder against Yamaha's best in the pits at Philip Island , and he was far , far advanced over what they were capable of.

I had a plastic 3D printed cylinder for the BSL500 made and sent it to him for analysis , and it came back with alot of epoxy and grinding done.
Those changes were immediately incorporated into the models for the first 3D laser sintered alloy cylinders ever manufactured.
All the lessons learned by Bartol later ended up on the KTM250GP parralel twin , and Yamaha finally saw the light and ended up with pretty much what Bartol had developed.

Are there any KTM 250frr cylinder and engine pics around the web? Never seen anything but the assembled engine

[wobbly]

I have never seen anything but the one side on shot I posted.

[jamathi]

Yamaha had seen the results gained by Harold Bartol who made his own version of a Honda style cylinder using the Czech made CNC anemometric flow visualization machine.
He was running Yamaha's 125GP program that was embarrassingly slow , but even though his cylinder was designed to fit directly onto the Yamaha case he was not allowed to use his stuff on the factory bike.
He showed me the dyno sheets of his cylinder against Yamaha's best in the pits at Philip Island , and he was far , far advanced over what they were capable of.

I had a plastic 3D printed cylinder for the BSL500 made and sent it to him for analysis , and it came back with alot of epoxy and grinding done.
Those changes were immediately incorporated into the models for the first 3D laser sintered alloy cylinders ever manufactured.
All the lessons learned by Bartol later ended up on the KTM250GP parralel twin , and Yamaha finally saw the light and ended up with pretty much what Bartol had developed.

bartol did nothing else than always copy the latest Honda cylinder he could lay his hands on
As I saw when working for Derbi.
The Best cylinder gave 47.5HP
We had such a Czech flowbench at Aprilia
It proved totally useless, and was soon eliminated...
By the way: how many World Championships did bartol win against mine 49?

[jamathi]

Are there any KTM 250frr cylinder and engine pics around the web? Never seen anything but the assembled engine

https://media.nationthailand.com/upl...nXSlnsZW.webpy
You can be pretty sure it was honda copy.....

[husaberg]

Are there any KTM 250frr cylinder and engine pics around the web? Never seen anything but the assembled engine

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...p?albumid=4901
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...p?albumid=4857

https://media.nationthailand.com/upl...nXSlnsZW.webpy
You can be pretty sure it was honda copy.....

Was the reed derbi also a copy of the Honda Kit?
Only reason i ask is the pipe is the same?

[wobbly]

You are right Jan , even the pipe used on the KTM was pretty much an A kit Honda copy.
Although I did very much like the design concept of the KTM being a parralel twin , running at 90* firing with a balance shaft.
This gave symmetrical intake and Exhausts , not possible on a V configuration.

[jamathi]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...p?albumid=4901
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...p?albumid=4857


Was the reed derbi also a copy of the Honda Kit?
Only reason i ask is the pipe is the same?

Yes, of course it was....

[JanBros]

KTM 125 http://www.pit-lane.biz/t118-gp125-c...tiques-ktm-frr
KTM 250 http://www.pit-lane.biz/t606-gp250-ktm-250

but you have to be registered to view pictures

[Frits Overmars]

Yamaha had seen the results gained by Harold Bartol who made his own version of a Honda style cylinder.. . He was running Yamaha's 125GP program that was embarrassingly slow , but even though his cylinder was designed to fit directly onto the Yamaha case he was not allowed to use his stuff on the factory bike.

You bet Yamaha saw the results. They had paid the development of a better cylinder and they were less than pleased when the end product turned out to be a shameless Honda copy. Can you imagine how that must have hurt in the traditional Japanese culture? No wonder they prefered to struggle on with what they had rather than have those cylinders on their works bikes.

bartol did nothing else than always copy the latest Honda cylinder he could lay his hands on as I saw when working for Derbi.

Jan could have added that a son of our mutual friend Cees van Dongen used to race a Yamaha TZ125. In order to cure its mediocre power, Cees equiped the little Yamaha with a Honda RS125 cylinder. That gave Bartol an idea....

After Bartol left Derbi for KTM, taking with him the Derbi 125cc faring mold, developed by Porsche and paid for by Derbi, we noticed a couple of things.
Team mechanics may stay friends, even after they went to work for other teams, so we happened to have the drawings of the latest Honda pipes .
And below is the exhaust of the works KTM 125. And of course we had the Derbi works drawings.
Carbon copies, the three of them.

[a.montani]

I have used for years the Czech made deto amplifier that outputs a 0-5V logger signal available on Ebay.
It can also have a ground wire added to interface with an Ignitech unit to retard the ignition when deto is seen.
Cheap , reliable and uses a standard Bosch sensor with 8mm thru hole available new or from car wreakers from BMW/VW/Benz etc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18573910441...Bk9SR47GtdigYg

Thank you for your suggestion.
My target is to use it on track keeping under control knocking ang exh temperature during tests.
once I know right exh temperature "close" knocking (but in safe area) I could remove the sensor during race.

What do you think'

I will keep you updated.

thanks Again and happy NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY FROM ITALY!!!!!!!!!!

[katinas]

KTM 125 http://www.pit-lane.biz/t118-gp125-c...tiques-ktm-frr
KTM 250 http://www.pit-lane.biz/t606-gp250-ktm-250

but you have to be registered to view pictures

A few pictures that where posted here. Looks like piston edge was slightly rounded .

[crbbt]

You bet Yamaha saw the results. They had paid the development of a better cylinder and they were less than pleased when the end product turned out to be a shameless Honda copy. Can you imagine how that must have hurt in the traditional Japanese culture? No wonder they prefered to struggle on with what they had rather than have those cylinders on their works bikes.

Jan could have added that a son of our mutual friend Cees van Dongen used to race a Yamaha TZ125. In order to cure its mediocre power, Cees equiped the little Yamaha with a Honda RS125 cylinder. That gave Bartol an idea....

After Bartol left Derbi for KTM, taking with him the Derbi 125cc faring mold, developed by Porsche and paid for by Derbi, we noticed a couple of things.
Team mechanics may stay friends, even after they went to work for other teams, so we happened to have the drawings of the latest Honda pipes .
And below is the exhaust of the works KTM 125. And of course we had the Derbi works drawings.
Carbon copies, the three of them.

But the exits out of the right side of the bike. 100% different now

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I have read two separate articles saying the Aprilia 250's had traction control in 2009.

All I have discovered is that the traction control was achieved by monitoring the acceleration rate of the RPM increase of the engine. Then potentially pulling ignition timing (which would dump heat/energy into the exhaust, "shorten" the pipe)

I am wondering if the lean angle was also used as a parameter?
and I am guessing there are situations where advancing the timing would be the way to limit the RPM spike.

I guess what I am after is how the traction control actually worked on the 250's

[Haufen]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...p?albumid=4901
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...p?albumid=4857

Thanks. Btw, the first link says

Invalid Album specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

What is the reason behind the dual angle kinked negative squish area? Did KTM have pistons with a corresponding shape, or a bowl, too?

[husaberg]

Thanks. Btw, the first link says

should work now.

[Frank S.]

Was there detonation at the outer "ring" ?
Also the piston looks like sandblastet in that area.