ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

Ok.... a revisit of the three times past the main jet thing ..............

No one that disagreed with me has yet told us what happens to the induction wave when it slams up against the inlet when it shuts.........

Now, we know, at that point it becomes a reversion wave............

But those that say, that the inducted inlet mixture does not pass the main jet at least three times have not yet explained what happens to the inlet charge that is turned back as a reversion wave when the port closes......... and what happens when the inlet port opens again.

What do they think it's doing, sitting around having a picnic?

Anyone can see that the mixture won't be just lamely waiting around to be sucked in on the next induction cycle, as it's dynamic and will be heading of somewhere, and quickly............

I would like to know more, and could reaserch it and maybe find an interesting link to post, but this is something that a person who endlessly tells us they make their living tuning 2-strokes, so knows what they are talking about could probably explain in a more interesting way.

Now, what I think happens.... is the induction mixture resonates in the inlet tract, and some, if not all passes the main jet at some point, at least three times.......

If you think I am wrong.... try explaining what you believe actually happens.....

[Moooools]

Two dyno graphs scaled-alike. Enjoy.

(Team ESE wins in my opinion)

[speedpro]

I'm no scientist but I have observed a fog of fuel and air outside a carburetor opening at certain rpm on the dyno. We all agree air entering a carburetor on it's way to the engine collects fuel as it passes through the carb. It "may" not collect any fuel as it bounces out and the fog I have observed "may" be the air mixed with fuel it collected on the way in. When that air/fuel fog reenters the carb once the intake cycle restarts it will collect more fuel as per the first time it entered. At the least the air entering a carb that is bounced back out once the intake port closes will collect two loads of fuel. I personally think there will be fuel collected by the air every time it passes through the carb.

Easy check would be to put a carb on the test bench with airflow reversed and see if any fuel is mixed with the air as it flows in the reverse direction.

[SS90]

Two dyno graphs scaled-alike. Enjoy.

(Team ESE wins in my opinion)

Hhahahahaha,
So you are trying to tell us that an engine that produces DRAMATICALLY less torque at DRAMATICALLY higher RPM is a better engine?

Bwahahahahahah!

[SS90]

I'm no scientist but I have observed a fog of fuel and air outside a carburetor opening at certain rpm on the dyno. We all agree air entering a carburetor on it's way to the engine collects fuel as it passes through the carb. It "may" not collect any fuel as it bounces out and the fog I have observed "may" be the air mixed with fuel it collected on the way in. When that air/fuel fog reenters the carb once the intake cycle restarts it will collect more fuel as per the first time it entered. At the least the air entering a carb that is bounced back out once the intake port closes will collect two loads of fuel. I personally think there will be fuel collected by the air every time it passes through the carb.

Easy check would be to put a carb on the test bench with airflow reversed and see if any fuel is mixed with the air as it flows in the reverse direction.

Ignoring TeeZess intentionally antagonistic post, I will reply to yours Speedpro.

"fogging" or "standoff" is more prevalent depending on set up of an engine.... The higher state of tune ( high exhaust time area,blowdown time, expansion chamber baffle angle and so on), anyone that has run a 125GP bike with out an air box can relate to this.

When the bike comes on the pipe, and the inlet tract comes into to resonance, standoff will occur, certainly, I don't disagree.

But, to say that this causes the main jet to be drawn from "a minimum of three times" as far as I am concerned in nonsense.

I see it as a similar effect to the plugging effect of an expansion chamber on an exhaust port.

The returning wave meets an incoming wave, and the result is a mixing of the incoming air and fuel, meeting the returning air/fuel.

If this "three times past the main jet" theory was accurate, power jets would be redundant.....

[TZ350]

Would you like to discuss BMEP ........

Trust me, 125cc, 4 speed, 23 PS is achievable....albeit peaky power...... And difficult to keep in the power.

I am always interested in BMEP.......
Could you please give me the calculated results for those figures you quoted, the answer in psi or bar is ok...

Ours from memory (original plenum run) when we couldn't get a graph from Johns dyno, were 115psi for 20hp at 9,500 and 125psi for 19hp at 8,500 rpm.

And have you actually acheved that... 23PS, 125cc with a 24mm carb, ......

I am interested in a little more info if you have it, was it rotary valve and air cooled, 23PS at what rpm and how wide was the power spread? as measured from peak torque to peak hp ...

And do you (hopefully) have a dynograph of this 23PS engine, .....or was it just a theory?

I ask because I am interested in these things ........

[SS90]

I am always interested in BMEP.......
Could you please give me the calculated results for those figures you quoted, the answer in psi or bar is ok...

Ours from memory (original plenum run) when we couldn't get a graph from Johns dyno, were 115psi for 20hp at 9,500 and 125psi for 19hp at 8,500 rpm.

And have you actually acheved that... 23PS, 125cc with a 24mm carb, ......

I am interested in a little more info if you have it, was it rotary valve and air cooled, 23PS at what rpm and how wide was the power spread? as measured from peak torque to peak hp ...

And do you (hopefully) have a dynograph of this 23PS engine, .....or was it just a theory?

I ask because I am interested in these things ........

I certainly do have a dyno graph, and I will print it our and date it too.... Even post it on here.

On one condition.

You supply a video of either the Plenumed bike being ridden down the road (or on track).... And by ridden, I mean a complete set of gear changes, or being run on a dyno.

Prove to us all it works.

in return, I will post a video of a 23 ps, 24mm carbed 125cc air-cooled 4 speed engine being run on a dyno.

fair?

[TZ350]

When the bike comes on the pipe, and the inlet tract comes into to resonance, standoff will occur, certainly, I don't disagree.

But, to say that this causes the main jet to be drawn from "a minimum of three times" as far as I am concerned in nonsense.....

Now if we take one of those molecules of fuel from the standoff at the bellmouth.

We have to ask, did it get added to the fuel as the air mixture was moving into the carb (first pass)

or did it get added as the mixture reversion moved back out to the carbs Bellmouth (second pass as ventures work in both directions)

and will another molecule be added when this fog is sucked back in (third pass) just asking……..

[TZ350]

I certainly do have a dyno graph, and I will print it our and date it too.... Even post it on here.

On one condition.

You supply a video of either the Plenumed bike being ridden down the road (or on track).... And by ridden, I mean a complete set of gear changes, or being run on a dyno.

Prove to us all it works.

in return, I will post a video of a 23 ps, 24mm carbed 125cc air-cooled 4 speed engine being run on a dyno.

fair?

The plenum has worked well enough for Bucket to match your best so far and that the concept works.....

Do you have a dyno graph or not, it's a fair question, if you have post it.....

We know the plenum concept works, Bucket proved that and as the plenum hopfully progresses to something practical it's progress will be posted up, you can count on it.

You asked for a dyno graph of the plenum and expresed an interest in back to back tests with an ordinary carb, we gave it to you.

I wouldn't say your full of it but..........now its your turn.......

[SS90]

Now if we take one of those molecules of fuel from the standoff at the bellmouth.



and will another molecule be added when this fog is sucked back in (third pass) just asking……..

Interesting, but, like I say, if the returing air/fuel passes over the main jet, just as an expansion chamber "plugs" an open exhaust port, does the same not happen for a main jet, and, if not, why.....?

If this was a valid theory, would we not have electronically controlled man jets that acted in place of an electronically controlled power jet?

And when you think about it, when you use a power jet, you use a smaller main jet, equal to approximately the differential between the main jet and the original power jet.

In your theory, power jets are redundant, because (in your theory), this occurs naturally.

[TZ350]

Interesting, but, like I say, if the returing air/fuel passes over the main jet, just as an expansion chamber "plugs" an open exhaust port, does the same not happen for a main jet, and, if not, why.....?

If this was a valid theory, would we not have electronically controlled man jets that acted in place of an electronically controlled power jet?

And when you think about it, when you use a power jet, you use a smaller main jet, equal to approximately the differential between the main jet and the original power jet.

In your theory, power jets are redundant, because (in your theory), this occurs naturally.

You are wiffiling again.......... if there is a standoff, on which pass did that molecule come from....... before replying again take some time to think about it....... there may be another answer......

[SS90]

The plenum has worked well enough for Bucket to match your best so far and that the concept works.....

I wouldn't say your full of it but.....

Do you have a dyno graph or not, it's a fair question, if you have post it.....

We know the plenum concept works, Bucket proved that and as the plenum hopfully progresses to something practical it's progress will be posted up, you can count on it.

You asked for a dyno graph of the plenum and expresed an interest in back to back tests with an ordinary carb, we gave it to you now its your turn.......

Would you and your offspring stop turning this into a pissing contest TeeZee?

In any event, you have not matched diddly squat.

I beat you on your precious BMeP, by a long shot.

19 NM at 7400 rpm?

What do you have?

Not even close.

I will happily supply all the graphs and video you need, just as soon as you out your money where your mouth is.

Again, you say it works, I say "prove it".... You have never supplied an independent witness to say it works, a six month old video of a single gear run up your mums driveway proves nothing.

What do you have to lose?

Do it, and I will stop posting on your thread.

just oust a video of you plenum bike doing an all gear run up the road, or even better, and all gear run on a dyno.

I heard a wee birdie from Hampton downs recently........ I'm confident you cannot prove this thing works yet.....

[TZ350]

Do it, and I will stop posting on your thread.

You have already used that line up when you told us, that if we posted a dyno graph of the plenum you would stop posting on the thread........

Its becoming ever apparent you word's not worth much .......

We have shown you the plenum graph you asked for, now you owe us.........

So go on post your graph and tell us how wide the power spread is.........

[SS90]

You said that if we posted a dyno graph of the plenum you would stop posting on the thread........

you word's not worth much .......

We have shown you the plenum graph you asked for now You owe us.........

So go on tell us how wide the power spread is then.........

The offer was time dependent TeeZee.

The word from Hampton downs is not giving you any credibility.........

Come on man, stop dribbling, and come up with the goods....... Your starting to sound like your plenum.... I think it went....... Bkahhrgggghhhhh. Bbblllaghhhhh.....

[TZ350]

The word from Hampton downs is not giving you any credibility.........
Come on man, stop dribbling, and come up with the goods....... Your starting to sound like your plenum.... I think it went....... Bkahhrgggghhhhh. Bbblllaghhhhh.....

The person who embarks on personal attacks is the one who does not want to defend the facts........

Why can't you answer reasonable questions? Like why did Buckets engine equal your best efforts when he used the plenum?

Put up your new dyno graph if you have one and add something to your own credibility or go home.........