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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #9331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yow Ling View Post
    So how much mass do we need in a drum for an inertial dyno for up to say 40hp engines?
    would a couple of Petter diesel flywheels do the job ?


    Did anyone anwser this post mike something i am interested in as well.
    I seen this today, obviously a little large for a bike, but the approach has some merit.
    Built in brakes. Bearing that should be up to it.not to mention a convenient shaft for the starter.(Truck ones and real 4wd's normally have the provision to lock the diff also before some points out it will spin one wheel.)


    Free dyno software
    http://www.dynamometer-info.co.uk/do...o-software.htm

    http://www.dynamometer-info.co.uk/diy-dynamometer.htm
    A really heavy roller or drum(s) - This needs to be heavy enough to give a long enough period with even a really powerful car or bike to allow fuel flow, boost etc to stabilize properly. It also needs to be 16 inches diameter or above to prevent losses, tyre damage, and maximise traction to give good accuracy. It must be very free running, and of a known (mathematically calculated) inertial value. This needs serious consideration and testing to find the best size and mass. Our own Motorcycle one for example, finished up at 402mm Diameter x 562mm wide and solid turned steel.(weighs 2/3rds of a ton) Two of these are fine for up to 600 or 700 BHP cars as well. This gives almost twice the inertial value of the then popular DynoJet Dynamometer for bikes. And about 3 or 4 times as much as some current "dynamometers"! Smaller diameter = tyre slippage, and frictional losses, Smaller width = not enough load to fully test powerful drag bikes or to load up even modern stock bikes in lower gears.

    A Computer interface timing card / board, to accurately measure both engine RPM and time each drum revolution to a VERY high degree of accuracy. This level of accuracy must be far more precise than a computer or soundcard at 44k sample rate could ever achieve! There are many Dynamometers out there that use the computer to time the drum! They do NOT work accurately enough, and because of this need to use lots of data averaging on the graphs, This is very obvious when you look at the number of data points plotted on the screen on some so called "dynamometers"... The data they produce is pretty useless. This data card part is difficult - much more so than you could ever believe. Its also why the majority of small companies Dynamometers do NOT read real time RPM data during the run, as well as needing to use a HIGH level of data averaging in their graphs... This disguises the real issues, but stops you from seeing what really did happen during the run! BE VERY CAREFUL! This applies to a lot the inertia Dynamometers sold! Unless you are an electronics expert, and also a programmer they you are going to need to find one! If you get a dyno graph print out that gets more spiky in taller gears, and at the top "high power part of the curve, be very suspicious!

    A Drum sensor! Sounds easy but the timing accuracy required is far greater than at first glance would seem to be required! A simple hall effect device or a shaft encoder is NOT accurate enough. A gear position, dual hall effect latching sensor is, provided you are looking only at a single point (every 360 degrees) point on the drum.

    A Computer... cheap, buy anywhere!

    Some dyno software! Mine took 3 years of development and rewriting to finally get everything right and as we needed, with database, auto graph scaling, etc. Be warned, its easy to produce a graph, MUCH harder to produce a final finished useful bit of software with all the facilities you actually need! If you are not good with C programming, and physics, forget it!

    A dyno chassis to mount the car / bike / drum(s) into! This is obviously the easiest bit by far!

    Stuff like cooling fans, exhaust extraction, gas analysers, etc too, but technically these are not really part of the dyno system.



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  2. #9332
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    I have built several inertial dynos for 40 Hp engines ( engine dyno, not roller for a bike ) and the steel wheel were all sort of around the same dimensions.
    Depending on what scrap I could beg ,borrow or steal.
    Last one was 525 by 60 thick, new one is 450 by 80 thick.
    Depending upon what gear you use you can vary the spin up time, thus the acceleration rate very easily to get the test length in the ballpark.
    One thing not mentioned in many build descriptions is that you must use an overun clutch to prevent the inertia wheel from driving the test motor forward, after a test or
    more importantly, if it fails on the dyno.
    Imagine the mess if it siezes, and it is forced to keep running whilst you are frantically jumping on the brake.
    Im just about to assemble my new setup, so will take some pics when its up and running.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  3. #9333
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    One thing not mentioned in many build descriptions is that you must use an overun clutch to prevent the inertia wheel from driving the test motor forward, after a test or
    more importantly, if it fails on the dyno.
    Imagine the mess if it siezes, and it is forced to keep running whilst you are frantically jumping on the brake.
    Im just about to assemble my new setup, so will take some pics when its up and running.

    sweet

    This site http://www.tractordata.com/articles/technical/overrunning-clutch-powered.gifhttp://www.dtec.net.au/Inertia%20Dyno%20Design%20Guide.htm
    which has been quoted some-where has thede
    Being an ex farmer esp one that had driven a non "live drive tractor before"i should have thought about the "overrun clutch"
    Overrunning Clutch
    A one-way (or overrunning) clutch allows the engine to come to a stop whilst the flywheel continues to come to a gradual stop.
    This device is only needed if the engine or vehicle does not have a clutch to disconnect its drive force from the flywheel. After the flywheel has been accelerated and the engine throttle is closed the flywheel will continue to turn, the engine is forced to act as a brake (this is where a clutch would be used if one is available to effectively separate the engine from the flywheel).
    Excessive engine braking is very hard on an engine due to internal stresses and a critical issue is that 2 strokes get their lubrication inducted with their fuel/air mixture; this is not present or at very least minimal under closed throttle conditions.
    It is not enough to rely on the flywheel braking fast enough (read “braking” section for the dangers of this) and centrifugal clutches fitted to some applications won’t function when the output is doing the driving, they are designed for the engine to be applying the torque.
    Whilst we are discussing clutches, a one–way clutch does not negate the need to decouple the engine for starting; this is no problem on motorbikes etc. with conventional clutches. Trying to start an engine whilst it is driving the flywheel is difficult unless it has very low inertia (so therefore probably unsuitable for using anyway), the centrifugal clutch fitted to the engine (assuming it has one) should remain in place to allow starting and warm up but it should be adjusted to ‘lockup’ at low enough rpm to allow testing across the whole useful RPM range.
    Bearing supply companies have many overrunning drive options (also known as a ‘cam clutches’ in industrial applications) but prices can be ridiculous, particularly for assemblies that are ‘bolt on’ options. If you are prepared to be inventive then basic ‘cam clutch’ bearings are available, but you will need to design a housing to adapt to the dyno application.
    An approach widely used is the fitment of a modified PTO (Power Take Off) over-running clutch from farm equipment suppliers; they are extremely heavy duty and are fitted to farm implements such as ‘mowers’ that are driven from the tractor directly, these implements have enough inertia to cause some tractors to drive forward if they suddenly slowed down (the blade will continue to turn). The units will typically need machining to remove the internal splines to take your shaft in one side (female) and have the male sectioned machined down to fit inside your other shaft (male). The difficulty in mounting is offset by the cost, they can be found easily for less than AU$400 (we’ve seen them <$150!)


    PTO overrunning clutches
    Do not use automotive starter motor drive pinions as overrunning clutches on small dynos, they will fail! They are designed to operation for short durations (seconds) in normal use and they quickly overheat and seize. A more robust option may be to adapt one of the one-way pulleys from an automotive alternator; these are often used now on passenger sized diesel applications (and some petrol) to decouple drive forces for bearing life, less belt whip, less loading and inertial energy recovery.
    An alternative option we have seen is a small custom ‘dog clutch’ designed to disengage the motor at the end of a test. It can be fairly simple design just sliding on the shaft as it sees only intermittent use.



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  4. #9334
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    Heres a bit more enginge dyno stuff, they are using Datamite software which is what I have bought and customs are holding to ransom.

    http://www.tdkmotorsports.com/mechdyno.html
    My neighbours diary says I have boundary issues

  5. #9335
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    Kel is still unable to ride so the Beast stayed in the shed.

    The high point for Team ESE at Mt Welly today was Gigglebuttons FXR with Glen aboard winning an "A" grade pre lim race and a bike tuned by Speedpro with Dave M riding winning the first "A" grade points round. It looks like the lap times at the pointy end of A grade are now often under 30 seconds.

    The track was mostly dry for the racing but a good shower of rain in one of the races saw at least half the field drop their bikes, there was so much carnage that the race was Red Flagged, thankfully no real injures.


  6. #9336
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    I use a tractor PTO overun clutch as Husaberg showed above - around $150.
    Cut off the splined shaft and weld the drive sprocket to that face with an additional ball race inside for support on the shaft.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  7. #9337
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    Quote Originally Posted by aircooled View Post
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    a dyno like this?
    An old post with more interesting dyno pics.....

  8. #9338
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    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    Carrillo

    Not sure it happen exactly the same these days or even the ownership is the same. I had an idea they were now part of the conglomerate that owns wiesco etc

    My father still walks with a limp from a aluminum alloy rod breaking on him over 25 years ago.
    So what was the engine single cylinder aluminum alloy rod. (not an Enfield either Stephen)
    Virtual chocolate fish to the first correct answer.
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    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  9. #9339
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    Some other Aussie ones

    I guess they did read the same articles as posted above.
    MMC seem to be one of the fashionable materials these days. With selected rods available for the 4 stroke crowd
    http://www.mxcomposites.com/con_rod.php
    The MMC calipers that AP used to do were ridiculously light.

    Last picture might jog a few memories of a bucket from the past.


    The attachment is much much clearer
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    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  10. #9340
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    Ha Ha Argo, their best rod is the one they make for Mazda Rotaries. I had a need for a custom rod they said yeah no worries we can machine one out of 4140. I asked how did you get the big and small end eyes hardened up to >62HRc ????? We don't do that we would just press in hardened sleeves from the bearing shop...................................

  11. #9341
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2T Institute View Post
    Ha Ha Argo, their best rod is the one they make for Mazda Rotaries. I had a need for a custom rod they said yeah no worries we can machine one out of 4140. I asked how did you get the big and small end eyes hardened up to >62HRc ????? We don't do that we would just press in hardened sleeves from the bearing shop...................................
    As do the the Cornish and Carrillo ones Lozza..............


    The interesting thing is that the MMC ones are run direct on the crank-pin.They reputedly last for a seasons racing.
    So at 900 euro the $1430 NZD or $1136 Aussie beer tokens(plus vat and freight as well) those 4 strokes sure are cheap to run......


    http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/...omposite-rods/
    In my previous article on the subject of con rods I asked, “Can we manage without big-end bearings?” and went on to look at the various attempts to do this and the possible future options. The article briefly mentioned the benefits of not having a bearing, and observed that there is one currently successful application of bearing-free technology being raced.
    In the application concerned - four-stroke, single-cylinder race engines with ‘assembled’ cranks, where the crankshaft isn’t a single piece but is assembled with the con rod in place - there is an advantage in terms of design simplicity: the con rod can be a single piece rather than an assembly split at the big end. This means that there is neither a requirement for bolts to secure a cap, nor dowels or pins to ensure correct rod-to-cap alignment.
    The con rods in question are made of metal-matrix composites (MMCs), and an early Race Engine Technology Monitor article goes into some detail regarding the properties of such materials and their application to con rods.
    There are obvious advantages to using such materials for con rods, even if we can’t dispense with the big-end bearing. The low mass of the con rod means transient engine response should be improved, and indeed power output should also be improved because of the lower frictional loads due to the lighter rod. There is potentially further scope for optimisation by further lightening the crankshaft based on the lighter rod.
    MMC properties are due to the addition of small particles of silicon carbide to the aluminium matrix. These additions, however, have the unpopular side-effect that the material becomes difficult to machine. This is partly why some of the more popular rods are made from near net-shape forgings.
    The machining of the material is also a very specialised process, using special tooling and a high-speed machining technique originally developed by Saab. Isaksson says, “High-speed machining is one of the keystones in this process, as are the special tools being used.”
    In many ways motocross is an ideal arena in which to test a rod without a bearing. The engines are simple but highly tuned, and are stripped and rebuilt regularly, giving ample opportunity to gauge the condition of the internals. The move away from the standard needle roller came because it was felt that the original big end of the rod was rather large, so there was a desire to see if the needle roller was really required. From the work undertaken, it appears that there are cases where the needle-roller may be dispensed with.
    With these motocross rods running a hydrodynamic bearing, but without a shell, how long will it be before we see this technology more widely applied?
    http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/...-applications/This article spotlights the properties of one specific MMC (AMC-225xe) and some of its varied uses in motor sports. These uses include pistons, cylinder liners, con rods, rocker arms, valve spring retainers and suspension uprights.AMC-225xe is 75% (volume) high-strength Aluminium-Copper alloy (AA-2124) and 25% Silicon Carbide. It’s manufacture is based in powder metallurgy techniques, and includes (a) steps to produce ultra fine (2-3 micron) particles of the metal and the ceramic components, (b) the proprietary high-energy mixing process which assures an extremely homogeneous distribution of the components, (c) the HIP-based compaction of the mixture into billets, (d) the forming of the final product (forging, rolling, extrusion), and (e) the appropriate heat treatments.Table One shows the physical properties of AMC 225xe compared to certain other high performance materials. (AlBeMet-162 (62% Beryllium), which was outlawed for political reasons several years ago, is included in the table to illustrate the extremes of MMC technology.)

    Table One: Comparison of Key PropertiesCompared to 2618, the coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) is 32% less and the thermal conductivity is about 7% greater. These properties make it clear why an MMC piston can be designed either for the same life with a much-reduced weight, for much longer survival at the same weight, or some combination of greater life with reduced weight.Several years ago, one CART team began using cylinder liners from 225xe to address a longevity problem in that highly-turbocharged application. The new liners lasted so well that they could be re-used during two rebuild cycles. Currently, a major piston manufacturer has developed a big-bore kit for motorcycle engines using a 225xe liner.One company offers a line of 225xe con rods for popular 250, 450 and 650cc single-cylinder 4-stroke motorcycle racing applications. These one-piece rods, for built-up crankshafts with roller bearings, originally came with a pressed-in steel outer race for the rollers. Next, they eliminated the pressed-in steel race and ran the rollers directly on the con rod MMC surface. The current products now run with NO rollers. The MMC big-end surface forms a hydrodynamic bearing against the journal, without any coatings.While no steady-state power gains have been attributable to the use of these conrods, there has been a dramatic improvement in transient acceleration performance. They are nearly half the weight of the steel pieces they replace, which allows the counterweighting on the crankshaft to be lightened dramatically in the rebalancing, significantly reducing the mass moment of inertia of the crankshaft. That reduction also serves to reduce the gyroscopic moment which the engine generates during yaw and roll manoeuvring. Some teams report being able to eliminate the counterbalance shaft which some of the engines use to reduce engine vibration. Drivers report that the engines-sans-balance shaft are no worse than the original setup
    I have posted the last 4 attachments before but they include the use of MMC sleeves shame they are to big 68mm plus.
    The cost was far more reasonable than the rods but still much more than a alloy sleeve or iron.

    Sorry for choking the thread someone talk about the uniflow 100 would ya
    did you see the Barker Headless above

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    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  12. #9342
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    Feel free to run that Vanessa , never seen a Carrilo 2T rod

  13. #9343
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2T Institute View Post
    (AlBeMet-162 (62% Beryllium), which was outlawed for political reasons several years ago, is included in the table to illustrate the extremes of MMC technology.)
    Funny use of the word political, when they probably meant "fucking good" - Beryllium is highly toxic and carcinogenic. On the nastyness scale it is very similar to brown asbestos. You would not want to do any work (i.e. machining or grinding) that would release dust or particles. Shame really, because it is a really useful alloying addition for some metals.

    Cheers,
    FM
    Last edited by Fooman; 17th October 2012 at 09:48. Reason: spelling

  14. #9344
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2T Institute View Post
    Feel free to run that Vanessa , never seen a Carrilo 2T rod
    Sorry just has an Aprillia (roadbike) rod not ideal as its 19mm little end od, but what can you do.
    When you think about it. have i seen or heard of a 2T Carrillo rod. But why the negativity towards the bearing sleeves. There would hardly be a bevel duke running around Aussie that didn't have them (other than the Mille's)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fooman View Post
    Funny use of the word political, when they probably meant "fucking good" - Beryllium is highly toxic and carcinogenic. On the nastyness scale it is very similar to brown asbestos. You would not want to do any work (i.e. machining or grinding) that would release dust or particles. Shame really, because it is a really useful alloying addition for some metals.

    Cheers,
    FM
    Thanks I guess killing people is politically incorrect (unless they are non Americans or poor)
    isn't Beryllium still used in valve seat or is it a coating only?



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  15. #9345
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    We had a berrylium-copper tool kit for working on the radar transmitters on the orions when I was in the Air Force. Non magnetic but strong tools for working anywhere within about a foot of the Cross Field Amplifier magnets. They made magnetron magnets look wimpy. The tools came with serious health warnings regarding breakage or modification.
    Last edited by speedpro; 17th October 2012 at 20:59. Reason: clarification

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