ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

Page 1680 ......

Building a F4 water cooled two stroke Bucket racing engine.



Sleeving a RGV250 or RG150 cylinder down to 50mm used to be the hot ticket for making water cooled F4 2T's, a lot of work, and you had to admire the engineering effort that went into them.

Have a look at this thread. http://www.fxr150.co.nz/forum/showth...rrel-for-RG100

then this one. http://www.fxr150.co.nz/forum/showth...l-for-F4-100cc

then this one. http://forums.everything2stroke.com/...the-Shop/page3

John Tice actually covers the sleeve build for the NSR100 http://forums.everything2stroke.com/...he-Shop/page46

This is a very successful bike with a sleeved RG cylinder. It dominated racing at Mt Wellington for quite some time.



This is another sleeved RG that has been very successful down South.

Now that the capacity limit has been relaxed a bit constructors can take a different approach.

This is Team ESE's formula for a reliable 110cc water cooled Bucket racing Engine.

It's very simple, NSR cylinder, de stroke crank, long rod, to give enough room for a thick spacer plate to marry the NSR cylinder to the GP100 crankcase, can't get any easier than that.



The Suzuki GP crank was de-stroked to 48mm.

To marry the NSR cylinder to the GP cases, the original stud holes in the GP cases were plugged with threaded aluminium rod glued and screwed into the original stud holes. And the stud holes relocated to suit the NSR cylinder. The forth GP stud hole is used to hold the spacer plate down while the fourth stud for the NSR cylinder is located in the spacer plate itself.

The cylinder needs to be positioned by the spacer at a height that has the exhaust port opening at 80 deg ATDC (power valve fully up), transfers will then be 115 ATDC, our spacer plate was 15mm thick and we cut our rotary valve to open 145 BTDC and close 85 ATDC.

The top of the cylinder was turned down 2mm and the head was spigot'd 2mm into the cylinder, total adjustment 4mm. When you turn the top of a plated cylinder it pays to grind a chamfer around the top of the bore so the turning tool does not pick up and chip the plating. There are two areas in the crankcase just below the cylinder that need to be relieved for rod clearance.

Some more detailed pictures here.

Basic parts.

NSR250 cylinder

Wiseco 15x20x17.8 top end bearing part number B1038

Wossner Suzuki RM125 00-03 part number 8061DA (54mm bore, 1mm ring, gap at 6 o'clock and 15mm L/E pin).

Yamaha RD400 Pro X Connecting Rod Kit 03.2070 OEM # 2T2-11651-00

RGV250 big end bearing.

2 of 20x20 Mallory metal slugs. Franklin Engineering can help you here, pricey but. http://www.franklinengineering.co.nz/

Recoverable cylinder from a Honda NSR250 , Suzuki RGV250 or Aprilia RS125. In fact the complete top end cylinder, head, power valves, cables and power valve servo.

De stroke crank to suit re bored cylinder diameter. 48mm stroke for 54mm cylinder and 44.5mm stroke for 56mm cylinder.

Honda RS125 expansion chamber or your own copy of one or maybe something more exotic.

Some 15mm plate big enough to make a base gasket shaped spacer out of.

OKO 24mm carb. OKO because they machine very well when you want to make a 24mm legal super flow carb.

With my so called diffuser carburetors the idea was to move the 24mm high velocity area away from the disruptive metering area around the slide.

As a base for their Bucket racing projects Team ESE use the old 70/80's Suzuki GP100 rotary valve engine. The Suzuki TF or TS100 is also a good choice, maybe a very good choice for pairing with the Aprilia RS125 cylinder. The GP,TF, TS all have 19mm big end pins that can be bored out on a CNC machine for the 22mm RD400 pin and easily offset to reduce the stroke.

From memory, on the Suzuki GP/TF/TS the B/E pin needs moving in 1.25mm for a stroke of 48mm for the Honda NSR250 and Aprilia RS125 cylinder, the RGV needs 2.75mm, anyway best double check that and anyway it could be a little different depending on how re bored your cylinder is.



We are all used to raising the exhaust port for more power but great news, no porting required. The thing is, you get the same result by shorting the stroke. Because the crank has to turn further (more degrees) from the top of the exhaust port opening to the transfer port when you shorten the stroke.

Shortening the stroke means you get more blow down time area and improved performance but still have standard cylinder like reliability. A win win.



On the 110cc GP engine we built we used a salvaged NSR250 cylinder. The cylinder was mounted on a spacer plate who's thickness was adjusted so the exhaust port opened at 80 deg ATDC and by good fortune the transfers then opened at 115 deg ATDC. So perfect performance port timing from a standard cylinder all because we shortened the stroke from 50.5 to 48mm.

You don't have to go the six speed conversion, dry sump, gear spray oil and straight cut primary gears rout unless you really want too. It is probably much better to stick with five gears and arrange the power spread to allow the bike to run corner to corner with the minimum number of gear changes. At Mt Wellington a very twisty tight track my air cooled engine could get away with only two changes, per lap, one up, one down.

The GP has a bit of a gap between 2nd and 3rd. The early five speed TS125 gear box can be modified to fit the GP.

Making progress with the six speed Suzuki GP110cc engine. Spent my evenings after work for the last couple of weeks test assembling everything to make sure that they fit and the clearances are correct. Lots and lots of detail work has been required to get things right.

The good news is that after months of work I have finally given Mr.Bigglesworth a thrashing on the dyno. The bad news is that there is still a reluctance to come back on the throttle.

The oiler lubricates the clutch hub gear through a small hole near the end of the spray bar and the end of the tube sprays oil onto the outside of the clutch hub itself, some of it will hopefully dribble down to the output shafts plain bush bearing. There is a new hole in the input shaft to lubricate the clutch hub bearing.

The whole build can be seen by following the backstory posts like a trail of bread crumbs.

From here posts of the builds progress link back to each other and you can follow them like a trail of bread crumbs.

[TZ350]

Page 1680 ...... B

Farmer Ken had his new engine on track today, a few nice home made goodies in this baby, NSR250 pot on TF bottom end, stroked crank, power valve, quick shifter, it's fully loaded

This bike has a de stroked Suzuki TS100 engine fitted with a NSR MC18 cylinder and custom full case reed block, it runs really well.

...

The good old piston port semi case reed Suzuki TF/TS100 engine looks like a very good candidate for a Aprilia RS125 cylinder.

The Suzuki range of TF engines from the 80's are still being made new so there must be a few old engines floating about.



Electric water pump, 45 deg bypass thermostat from Wobbly, radiator off Trademe, I think it is from a Kawasaki.

I see flow should be 1 L/min/hp. The Mercedes/Bosch pump falls well short. The pumps I found that get somewhere close to 30L/min draw 4A plus. The Prius pump at 19L/min draws under 2A. This video shows current draw at the 3.45 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ojNID2jDz4 You can buy the Prius pump from ebay for about $55NZ.

My $50 intercooler pump has been the bastion of reliability. Wish I'd found it earlier

Bit like this. . . golly that's got expensive. Still. . .

http://m.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-12V-D...%257Ciid%253A4

CXM-WP-50-40

CXRacing Manufacturer Part Number: 1076106001997 ... 30l/min . 3 amps

How to make a decent light weight racing 12 Volt generator stator for the Suzuki GP/TF/TS from a Lifan after market magneto kit. We have spun these to 14,000 rpm plus on the dyno and they have proved reliable on the track.

Follow the link back to the original post to see more details about the generator.

[TZ350]

Page 1680 ...... C

Modifying an early five speed Suzuki TS gear cluster to fit the GP.



Anneal both TS and GP input shafts.
Drill the center through the TS shaft for the clutch push rod.
Spigot the TS shaft with a press fit into the cut off end of the old GP shaft.
Weld the two shafts. Be careful to tack in several places to pull and hold the shafts straight.
Clean the weld and polish the shaft until the input shaft bearing slips on easily.
Case harden to a depth of 0.005" or so.

The two left hand output shaft forks need building up with bronze.
They must be built up on the inner face only, ie the center line of the original fork is offset.
Top and bottom forks are offset towards each other, ie the center lines are closer together.
And the fork ends are thicker for the wider grove in the TS output shafts sliding dogs .
The input shaft fork on the right does not need any bronze but it needs to be opened up a bit to fit the slightly larger diameter TS sliding dog.

The GP box has a big gap between 2nd and 3rd, the TS is much better.




Team ESE use these. Ignitec Sparker DC-CDI-P2 Race digital CDI, this unit is powered by 12 Volt DC, ie battery powered. http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/dc...cdip2_race.htm

Bucketracer posted how he sets up Team ESE Ignitec ignitions. You will need to go to the original post, to read all the details.

I got the job of setting up NedKellys IgniTech programmable Ignition.

This is how we went about it with one of Team ESE's bikes and Mt Eden Motorcycles dyno. Chambers is friendly with Mike and was able to get a bit of a deal on some dyno time.

The IgniTech software is very clever as changes to the ignition curve can be made on the fly and the Ignition itself re-programed while the engine is still running............

Chairs, the latest ones i see are are digital now though, so they will have a curve i hope.
They are still a neat little set up, and cheap as chips.
Attachment 328749Attachment 328750
Price:$299.00 + $4.49 shipping
https://www.amazon.com/DIGITAL-IGNIT.../dp/B00CFL5QLU

http://www.ktm-parts.com/mm5/graphic...XS12050039.pdf

For an idea just how big they are for those unfamilar with the little KTM's
Attachment 328751

Det buttons ...

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1130263736

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1130792235

Attachment 328563Attachment 328564

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016...-anltribo.html


Researchers at Argonne National Laboratory have discovered an ultra-durable, self-lubricating tribofilm that regenerates in the presence of oil, heat, and pressure—meaning that it will not wear away over the life of an engine. The film, reported yesterday in the journal Nature, develops when a new catalytic coating that can be applied to engine parts interacts with lubricating oil to create an extremely tough coating that almost eliminates wear.

Tests revealed the diamond-like carbon (DLC) tribofilm reduced friction by 25-40% and that wear was reduced to unmeasurable values. The discovery could have implications for the efficiency and durability of future engines and other moving metal parts that can be made to develop self-healing DLC tribofilms.

This is a very unique discovery, and one that was a little unexpected. We have developed many types of diamond-like carbon coatings of our own, but we’ve never found one that generates itself by breaking down the molecules of the lubricating oil and can actually regenerate the tribofilm as it is worn away

I reckon this is a good way to get very close. http://www.underdogsracing.com/fospipe/ And you get a pipe as a bonus.

Input all the relevant bits and it will recommend the exhaust port diameter for the engine. The 2 engines I have at the moment use the crab size that this calculator recommends as exhaust port dia. Good please to start I reckon.

I don't run a det counter and I really want to understand my 98 RS125 better so I got an EGT. It's a standard engine, ignition, pipe, carb, etc. Only changes are a VHM head with a standard profile 10.4cc insert, and a reed block stuffer (stock reeds).

How far down the header should I be putting this probe? and how far into the header should it be?

I've searched the ESE thread and saw some comment on jetting to certain Fahrenheit temps at wide open throttle. Are these temps pretty universal across race 2 strokes? Any other advice on how I should get my own base line and at what point this stock 125 of mine might lunch itself is greatly appreciated.

One of these:


Other discussion in the thread:

In any badly tuned 2T you can easily get readings over 1300*F and survive,ONLY if the setup is not optimal.
If the com is too low for the fuel, or if the timing is overly retarded, then the excess heat produced late in the combustion cycle is dumped into the pipe
and thus alot less is soaked into the piston.
But just the mere fact the engine did survive that insane abuse, points to the fact that the setup is nowhere near correct.
It still amazes me though that people have gauges on the bike, skid around the track, see death numbers on the screen then ride back to the pit and tell everyone about what just happened.
Why is the gauge there ? To help tune the engine,but what if the com was perfect and the timing dialled in correctly on a dyno.
The same rider would then do several laps - watching the temps scream past 1250, lock it up at the end of the straight - THEN come in and say " I saw 1300 and shit ive siezed it, bastard thing".
If a correctly setup engine cannot be held under 1200*F by the jetting, then it should be richened immediately so that it can be.
THEN, go down one size at a time and approx 50* rise should occur for each change, shooting for a max on AvGas of 1250*F.
If the change produces less than 50* delta in egt then that indicates that you are approaching deto rather than making more power from the extra heat of combustion.
The opposite is true as well, if more than 50* is seen with 1 jet leaner, then you can be sure the setup is not correct for the fuel and a heap of unused heat is being dumped into the pipe.
But, using excess fuel to cool the combustion process will not make anywhere near the actual power available ,if the ignition and com was optimised.
This means as a general rule for a fast watercooled 125 cylinder on AvGas that the com is close to 16:1 and the peak power timing is close to 15* - any numbers alot less than that
then you dont need AvGas,and or you do need to rethink the tuning.

[wobbly]

The only simple position guide I can give is to say about 3 X Bore down the header from the port face.
You are trying to get out of the unburnt air/fuel zone that sits in the header - but not so far down as to see the gradual temp drop from wall heat radiation.
As far as depth into the header, do what ever you can to get it as close to the middle as possible.
The short,capped end 5mm probes some suppliers sell are useless for reliable use as a tuning tool.
This makes a HUGE difference , believe it or not.

In a 125 kart engine at the Nationals, I got completely lost for 2 days practice trying to get it tuned.
The egt said it was on the limit at 660*C, but the piston and plug were nowhere near,and we were 3/10 sec off the pace.
Luckily on the morning of the final I noticed from the outside that the probe seemed to be pushed in along way.
It was a long exposed tip Stinger type from EGT Industries ( the best and only guaranteed probe you can buy ) with a 90* bend just above the ferule and locknut.
And sure enough, it was 10mm too far in ,past center-line.
I pulled it back up to on center and in the warmup, what was 660*, now read as 610*.
At least an easy 2 jet sizes too rich.
We won, having been second all thru qualifying and the heat races.

As you are running a 10.4 cc head, you will be on Avgas, so in F you are looking for a minimum of 1220 and a max close to 1280.
Start rich, and go down a jet at at a time,you should see around 30 to 40* F increase in temp each change.
If you go down a jet and only see a 20*F increase ,or even worse it stays the same ,or real BAD it drops - then Mr Deto is in the house - go back one, or two in size.
Just remember that ignition timing affects the reading as well,+2* will drop the temp around 2 jet sizes in a RS125 - so then the delta temp change rule becomes even more important.

[TZ350]

Supercharged 2T with twin rotary valves. http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html#turbos more 2T stuff towards the bottom of their page.

[WilDun]

Supercharged 2T with twin rotary valves. http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html#turbos more 2T stuff towards the bottom of their page.

Good stuff! we don't hear a lot (from Denmark?) on bikes with superchargers these days, but this has sure made up for that!

[F5 Dave]

RGV sleeved has been a bit variable. Nigel's bike for sure has been successful but largely because of the useless old old fat fart (a mate) riding it. Its fast but my MB has past it. He needs to increase peak power past 12000 rpm.(pussy) .but hes too ghey. Diesels bike has never been close. But one ride of it at Ruapuna motivated me to get my RS MB going again.

Skinny kid not afraid of braking more bones could have won the battle of the buckets once I'd sorted it, easy. Useless fat old prick winning the sprint races showed that if it could keep together itcould (pin fixed that).

[husaberg]

RGV sleeved has been a bit variable. Nigel's bike for sure has been successful but largely because of the useless old old fat fart (a mate) riding it.

er...i always thought Nigel has no mates.

[F5 Dave]

Nah, he's a good prick. But don't try come around the outside and expect to eat anything but grass.

[Frits Overmars]

Good stuff! we don't hear a lot (from Denmark?) on bikes with superchargers these days, but this has sure made up for that!

Well.... 'these days' was 52 years ago, in 1965.
Here are some more pics of this blown 12-speed Kreidler engine, the latest version with 2-speed hand x 6-speed foot operated gearboxes (riders lost count when downshifting with the previous 3-hand x 4-foot setup).

[lohring]

The Roots blower is very inefficient at any but the lowest pressure ratios because it has no internal compression. Screw type compressors are used where moderate pressures are needed and piston compressors are still the choice for high pressures. Axial and centrifugal compressors are used where high volumes and moderate pressures are needed.

The problem with simple two strokes is the cylinder pressure is hard to raise much even if the exhaust is closed during intake because of the short time possible. A very long time ago it was realized that raising the exhaust pressure along with the intake pressure was the solution. That's what turbochargers do. The problem is that turbochargers are more efficient in larger sizes. I think that the latest small turbochargers might work better than tuned pipes alone in as small as 50 cc engines. There's no question that turbochargers are the answer in larger sizes. See the snowmobile engine below.

Lohring Miller

[Frits Overmars]

The Roots blower is very inefficient at any but the lowest pressure ratios because it has no internal compression. Screw type compressors are used where moderate pressures are needed and piston compressors are still the choice for high pressures. Axial and centrifugal compressors are used where high volumes and moderate pressures are needed.

The supercharger on the above Kreidler engine may look like a Roots blower but it was in fact an excentric vane compressor. Here are some details.

The problem with simple two strokes is the cylinder pressure is hard to raise much even if the exhaust is closed during intake because of the short time possible.

Some coincidence; I just wrote a few words on the subject here Lohring: https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...totypes/page82

[philou]

Interesting concept for development

http://iffitech.com/project/p2-cylinder/

[Frits Overmars]

Interesting concept for development http://iffitech.com/project/p2-cylinder/

The P2 was an internal project where we developed a novel porting scheme.... we developed cylinders with fully CNC machined ports so that small changes in torque could be discerned...

iffi's novelty claim may be more iffy than they realize. Below are some pictures published by German Ernst Ansorg in 1965. No, he didn't use CNC. But he did apply some tricks of the trade that iffi may yet have to discover.
Ansorg smoothed the small gaps between his exchangeable transfer inserts and the cylinder sleeve with lead solder. If the blowdown time.area was too small, the hot spent gases that entered the transfer ducts, would round off the soldered edges; a nice indication.

[eldog]

Interesting concept for development

http://iffitech.com/project/p2-cylinder/

Was very surprised this is in NZ

interesting.