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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #34471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condyn View Post
    I have an air cooled twin engine that shares the same bore and stroke as a more modern liquid cooled engine. The liquid makes very good power. I am essentially taking most characteristics from the liquid and applying them to my anemic air cooled turd. I have ground off the Cooling fins around the exhaust duct and welded up the area for auxiliary exhaust ducts before welding fins back on. Also welded up the floor and the bottom corner radii with aluminum sticks ( thanks for the tip wobbly ) will be doing the 75% nozzle on this and reshaping the duct to oval. The air cooled is a cylinder reed with very little intake area and no good way to add larger reed blocks due to the design limitations and rear studs. I know... I know I could cut the pistons and so on but I would rather have a nice inner transfer radius and a case reed air cooled. I have cut the reed blocks off of the liquid engine and am planning on welding them to the air cooled engine. Even though the bore and stroke is the same, the liquid has a taller case and shorter cylinder than the air cooled counterpart, due to the intake design amongst other reasons I am sure. There is not enough room between the crank bearings on the air cooled engine with the shorter upper case half ( the case splits horizontally ) for the liquid reed blocks to have straight unblocked flow into the crank case. The rectangle area of the aluminum after the pedals on the reed blocks is 2480mm2. If I keep the height the same and reduce the width to the width of the case between the bearings it would be 1953mm2 at the case. My idea was to make the reduction in width with a block of aluminum welded between the reed blocks that I cut from the liquid engine and the air cooled case. I know this would also add to the case volume and or intake length? ( If that makes sense to anyone I will be surprised ) This finally leads me to my question. Is it acceptable to have a smaller intake area after the reed petals at the crankcase, or would it be a better idea to transition the rectangle into a square of the same area? I ask this because I know the inner area of the reed block already is not the same as what is going through the reeds.
    Your "smaller" area of 1953mm2 is equal to a 50mm duct. In what engine is this maybe not enough?

  2. #34472
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreas View Post
    Your "smaller" area of 1953mm2 is equal to a 50mm duct. In what engine is this maybe not enough?
    Im not quite sure what you mean by that. The 2480mm2 would be closer to a 50x50 window than the 1953mm2. One reason that I asked is because it would be quite a steep transition in a short distance.

  3. #34473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condyn View Post
    Im not quite sure what you mean by that. The 2480mm2 would be closer to a 50x50 window than the 1953mm2. One reason that I asked is because it would be quite a steep transition in a short distance.
    50mm round duct I mean, but its still quite big. Does the reed open more than 1953mm2? And the carb is also bigger, then this number is too small.

  4. #34474
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    I definitely do not want to accept this reed block as the end all be all solution just because of the success that the liquid I am referring to has had. Maybe a smaller unit would work better. I do have Engmod2t but I want to physically build this engine and dyno it before I complete my model and simulate it. I think it will help me develop it more effectively that way. I will try to grasp the pressure recovery idea.

  5. #34475
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    So if you have EnMod , then its easy to calculate the effective reed window area.
    This is the important factor to be looking at to see if the reed itself will be deficient in area to a) match the carb size b) match the area needed for the power predicted.
    If the reed is deficient , then the obvious step is a VeeForce W reed.
    Part of the reason these work well is that invariably their much bigger window area is fitted into the original reed cavity area - and with a much less abrupt area increase exiting the reed tips this
    helps the pressure recovery.
    Making the reed cavity exit area into the case , smaller and smaller has been a trend over the last several years.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  6. #34476
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    I have been sitting this weekend and going back and forth regarding how to handle the lubrication of the angle gear for the rotary valve.
    As I see it, there are 3 options.
    1. Handle lubrication for this part separately from main oiling.
    2. Make it a part of the crankcase
    3. Couple it with main lubrication through a passage for oil and one for vent.
    These variants all have different pros and cons, with amount of shaft seals, etc.

    Anyone done any similar solution?
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    No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.

  7. #34477
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    Is it possible to use two different materials?
    Like steel in one gear and sintered in the other.
    I was thinking, it's like no load/forces on that axel.

    https://www.ascosintering.com/bevel-gears
    https://shop.hpceurope.com/an/produit.asp?prid=4386

  8. #34478
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    SwePatrick - that is a dangerous asumption as the Aprilia would break the RV drive shaft when certain numbskull riders would try to use the engine braking ( breaking ) like a 4T and
    change down gears , instantly hitting 14500 rpm. The inertial loads from spinning up even a carbon disc are considerable.

    My take on the drive setup would be a seperate small enclosed space with a seal on each end of the cross shaft.
    That way the you would have a minimal oil bath needed for the bevel and the LH bearing behind the balance disc only ( the balance disc does not need oil splash at all )

    Myself and Jeff Henise are looking at the same scenario for a 500 parallel twin with two RV across the front , needing individual discs as it runs 90* firing.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  9. #34479
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    are you not better off just running two crankshaft disc valves, one either side.
    Or in the case of a twin, make it a V, one crankshaft disc valve per crankcase and a butterfly that opens the the case, opposite side, 24 / 7 when up at full power. A V allows room for this.
    And of course four injectors per cylinder. (mk2)
    I guess no reason not to do this as a single cylinder also, there by only needing one disc valve on one side, as per tradition.

  10. #34480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muhr View Post
    I have been sitting this weekend and going back and forth regarding how to handle the lubrication of the angle gear for the rotary valve.
    As I see it, there are 3 options.
    1. Handle lubrication for this part separately from main oiling.
    2. Make it a part of the crankcase
    3. Couple it with main lubrication through a passage for oil and one for vent.
    These variants all have different pros and cons, with amount of shaft seals, etc.

    Anyone done any similar solution?
    Muhr,
    Without a full understanding of the design, I would think that the shaft bearings and gears could all be lubricated using the transmission oil. This would necessitate some careful design of angled channels and drillings to ensure the oil gets around. If you had the one (& only) seal behind the bearing adjacent to the disc valve, this bearing would have to be lubricated. Not sure on the overall angling of the unit, but possibly a drilling from the B port crankcase passage might be sufficient to create some flow. Maybe there is enough oil (from the mixture) migrating to the centre of the disc to get into the bearing.

    Some nice features in the design.
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  11. #34481
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    Been thru all the options for a twin Flett , a V cannot ever get anything like symetrical intake and Exhaust geometry.
    The KTM250 GP parallel twin engine running at 90* , with a balance shaft was I believe the best compromise for performance and KISS.
    Just add RVs driven by the balance shaft , and provision for Mk2 then it has the best of all the current ideas.
    Using the gib system on the RVs we can achieve virtually any open duration we want ( of course not 24/7 ) but from my experience of running at 95* closing the gain in top end
    and overev power is huge.
    Of course then the mid power is non existant , but with servo control of the opening and closing angles this wont be an issue.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  12. #34482
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    Reading back through the posts I came upon a part where you were talking about y-manifolds and how it can supercharge the other cylinder as the exhaust gases come out the port. This was only at 200 degrees of exhaust or above. Do you think this is much better than the 190 degree superposition on the same exhaust system

  13. #34483
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    SwePatrick - that is a dangerous asumption as the Aprilia would break the RV drive shaft when certain numbskull riders would try to use the engine braking ( breaking ) like a 4T and
    change down gears , instantly hitting 14500 rpm. The inertial loads from spinning up even a carbon disc are considerable.

    My take on the drive setup would be a seperate small enclosed space with a seal on each end of the cross shaft.
    That way the you would have a minimal oil bath needed for the bevel and the LH bearing behind the balance disc only ( the balance disc does not need oil splash at all )

    Myself and Jeff Henise are looking at the same scenario for a 500 parallel twin with two RV across the front , needing individual discs as it runs 90* firing.
    Ofcourse you need to take in calculations using a bit beefier then normal.
    I thought everyone was smart enough to compensate for that

    If it is possible to get it to work on big v8 engines(brass gear on distributor), i would think it´s possible to get it to work on a small shaft with a carbondisc in the other end.
    You seen a distributor and it´s huge rotor?
    Quite big inertia in those(even thou it´s plastic), and i have never seen any gear suddenly break due to tireshaking(high intense shaking in whole driveline, huge clatter in gears), they get worn by mileage as everything is anyway.

    Seems to be the interwebs these days, to blow up a small problem to a huge one.

  14. #34484
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post

    My take on the drive setup would be a seperate small enclosed space with a seal on each end of the cross shaft.
    That way the you would have a minimal oil bath needed for the bevel and the LH bearing behind the balance disc only ( the balance disc does not need oil splash at all )

    Myself and Jeff Henise are looking at the same scenario for a 500 parallel twin with two RV across the front , needing individual discs as it runs 90* firing.
    Thanks wob
    I can only agree that it is the most straightforward approach.
    Hope to hear more about the 500 project! Sounds very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Muhr,
    Without a full understanding of the design, I would think that the shaft bearings and gears could all be lubricated using the transmission oil. This would necessitate some careful design of angled channels and drillings to ensure the oil gets around. If you had the one (& only) seal behind the bearing adjacent to the disc valve, this bearing would have to be lubricated. Not sure on the overall angling of the unit, but possibly a drilling from the B port crankcase passage might be sufficient to create some flow. Maybe there is enough oil (from the mixture) migrating to the centre of the disc to get into the bearing.

    Some nice features in the design.
    Thanks Ken
    Yes it would have been neat to be able to get this part can maintenance itself from the already existing lubrication. Made a sketch of using balance shaft gear as a pump, maybe a little too optimistic ..

    Quote Originally Posted by SwePatrick View Post
    Ofcourse you need to take in calculations using a bit beefier then normal.
    I thought everyone was smart enough to compensate for that

    If it is possible to get it to work on big v8 engines(brass gear on distributor),

    Seems to be the interwebs these days, to blow up a small problem to a huge one.
    Questions one should ask yourself are how fast it spins and how fast it changes speed

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk_(physics)
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    No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.

  15. #34485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flettner View Post
    are you not better off just running two crankshaft disc valves, one either side.
    That is what Jan Thiel would prefer now, based on his experience with the rear-disc-valve RSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax View Post
    Reading back through the posts I came upon a part where you were talking about y-manifolds and how it can supercharge the other cylinder as the exhaust gases come out the port. This was only at 200 degrees of exhaust or above. Do you think this is much better than the 190 degree superposition on the same exhaust system
    Exhaust wave superposition occurs when an exhaust port opens, not when it closes, so superposition does not directly enhance the reflected pulse from an expansion chamber; it enhances the primary pulse that is entering the expansion chamber. And yes, this enhanced primary pulse will lead to a stronger reflected pulse. In a good engine this reflected pulse may have an amplitude of about 2,5 bar.

    Now let's look at Y-manifolds and how we can use the exhaust pulse that exits the exhaust port of one cylinder to directly supercharge the neighbour cylinder.
    I call this phenomenon cross-charging, and it requires that the primary pulse out of a cylinder that opens its exhaust port, arrives at the other cylinder before this closes its exhaust port. This obviously requires an exhaust timing of over 180°, and because the pulse has to travel via the Y-manifold, we have to allow for some travel time as well. Finally, we want to give the pulse sufficient time to inflict its maximum amplitude on the second cylinder. All in all, the required exhaust timing for effective cross-charging will be in the region of 220°.

    An exhaust port this high will reduce the working stroke of the piston to just 70°. Is that bad? For this working stroke: yes. But just look at what we get in return.
    The opening pressure of an exhaust port with a normal 202° timing (normal for an Aprilia RSA, that is) will be just below 12 bar. But the opening pressure of an exhaust port with a 220° timing will be close to 20 bar! Now that is some supercharging, compared to the 2,5 bar of a reflected pipe pulse.

    The icing on the cake would be a rotary drum in the Y-manifold, momentarily closing the manifold exit when an exhaust port opens, so that the total pulse energy exiting that exhaust port has nowhere to go but to the other exhaust port.

    Detail questions: how short should the manifold be? Not too short, because it should be able to hold all the mixture that will subsequently be shoved into the neighbour cylinder.
    What about intercooling? There wil be hardly any place for an intercooler, and supercharging a cylinder with high-pressure hot mixture is begging for detonation, so maybe we should scavenge with pure air instead of mixture. And that would require direct injection. Diesel and HCCI come to mind...

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