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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #34996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Muhr, setting the correct clearance on a set of such gears is a nightmare. You should definitely google Cylkro Kronenräder. It offers a much better solution. If I had encountered it earlier, I would undoubtedly have recommended it for the Aprilia RSA.
    Attachment 348405Attachment 348406
    Thanks Fritz as always good tips. Have never heard of this before. I sent an email, we'll see what they answer, if they have something that would fit. I have done a bit of research on small teeth gears and understood that it is a bit tricky to succeed.

    https://www.kggear.co.jp/en/wp-conte...STOCKGEARS.pdf

    https://www.geartechnology.com/issue...stallation.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by philou View Post
    The engineers blue marking is very good for locating the surfaces of the gear teeth and adjust the correct clearance

    Old school style

    Attachment 348407
    Thanks philou yes i think gear compound is a must
    No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.

  2. #34997
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    Another video clip from Two Stroke Stuffing.
    .


  3. #34998
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    Still cant stop getting annoyed when 8 of 10 clever dick ideas turn out to be flops.
    Today , of all days at 30* C you would think cooling the transfer duct outer walls would be worth a bunch of power - but no.
    Complete waste of time , so I tested and retested, doing all gear runs , as well as 6th gear WOT pulls - no power to be had.
    A huge dissapointment.
    I tested as well the expensive 3mm longer race plug , with the body machined back to put the gap close to the chamber center , again , no power at all.
    Maybe the the new shallower chamber with the semi flat top piston makes the idea redundant.
    Bugger.
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    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  4. #34999
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    The amount of times I tested things that should work, like taking the kink out of an inlet manifold for a straight shot for example and found the dyno doesn't care, or rather the engine back to back swap, decides that this engine is not impressed. Another may be, but this one is not giving up its knickers (probably until you change something else).
    I've been told. Dreaming`s free.
    Think I'll go, back to sleep.
    Everybody listen, voices in my head
    Everybody listen, do yours say, what mine says?

  5. #35000
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Still cant stop getting annoyed when 8 of 10 clever dick ideas turn out to be flops.
    The good news is ... 9 of 10 BIG and well paid motorcycle engine research workshops ... have already tried those "Possible performance gain" methods.

    They had the same result as you did.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  6. #35001
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    I tested as well the expensive 3mm longer race plug , with the body machined back to put the gap close to the chamber center , again , no power at all.
    Maybe the the new shallower chamber with the semi flat top piston makes the idea redundant.
    Bugger.
    Good test with the cooling!
    Had the spark plug worked, one would have had to succeed in ducking below regulations, which would have been a difficult challenge.
    However, a very interesting challenge!
    I guess toroidal with a slot for volume measurement and a long spark plug would have been an option

    "2.16.8 - Spark plug
    In all categories except Superkart, the ignition spark plug must be mass-produced and remain strictly original. The spark plug barrel and the electrode insulation (electrodes not included) tightened on the cylinder head must not extend beyond the upper part of the combustion chamber dome (see Appendix No. 7)."

    https://backend.fiakarting.com/sites...pendix%207.pdf
    No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.

  7. #35002
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Well here we go again with me disagreeing and thinking in a completely differnt tangent to you Nitro.
    What you have shown with the 4 stroke plot is simply what has been documented in many SAE papers describing what is needed , and comparing TFX data to simulation data to prove it.
    Perfect example is SAE 2001 01 1797/4218.
    This showed real time data against Optimum Power Technolgy's 4 stroke sim package ( I can use that as its free to Uni engineering depts )
    Testing a straight pipe Vs a pipe/diffuser combination.
    4Ts exhausts are simpler in that there are two effects that can contribute to power , pulling as wide and as deep a depression around TDC overlap as possible , and secondly a strengthening leftward
    depression during the EVO period to reduce exhaust stroke pumping losses.

    Achieving both together can accentuate peak power , spreading the two effects out favours powerband ( torque ) width.
    Saying that achieving that plot could not be done just using a sim package is narrow minded rubbish - again it comes back to interpreting the data , and intellectual accuity in coming up with innovative
    solutions to generate the desired end result.
    Its easy to see on that plot that achieving even greater depression , sooner , between - 150 and -30 would reduce pumping losses during EVO. I dont need real data to see that trend at all.

    The result certainly isnt limited by the sims ability to represent vey accurately the real time data - the big differnce being the time and work involved is exponentially less the harder the task at hand is.
    Sadly for 4T tuning the exhaust plays second fiddle big time to the gains achievable with inlet tuning , the complete reverse of a 2T.
    Variable length Exhaust = big 2T power , variable length Inlet = big 4T power.

    EDIT - I could not resist adding a reply to this quote " I know we aren't here to talk 4 strokes, but for reference sake, this is basically what an exhaust trace looks using a typical exhaust header design (on a 4 stroke)."

    That pressure trace result is NOT from a typical exhaust header , its a completely wrong example , there is virtually no help with exhaust stroke pumping losses , and there is virtually no depression around TDC overlap
    ie that pipe setup is NOT tuned correctly to the chosen rpm.
    The super secret setup IS tuned correctly so will obviously produce superior pressure trace shape and power as a result.

    Well maybe you should resist lol.....The first trace is from the factory header. I showed the trace at the same engine speed as for the other pipe, simply for comparison sake. Yes this factory header (4-2-1) would be more effective (better trace) at a bit lower rpm, which I have not shown, but I think we all know what it will look like at a lower rpm and this is not a 4 stroke forum so I didn't bother taking up any more space with the discussion. The first trace is what it is, for that engine and that header at THAT rpm. I have seen and worked with real exhaust traces for an extremely wide range of customer engines, from all over the world, for 20 years.

    The second trace with the deep depression is not a straight pipe, nor is it a straight pipe with a diffuser, it is a unique pipe, no one has one like it.

    Lastly I take every SAE paper with a grain of salt, irregardless of topic. Here is why. 1) I can pick out bits of BS in the few papers for which I know as much or more about the topic than the authors, so I know BS must also exist in some other papers too on topics that I don't know as much about 2) I have been involved with some SAE papers being written and there is a degree of fudging as well as over simplification that happens, regularly. To be honest I would never reference an SAE paper, if the content mattered that much to me I'd do it myself and know what's what (and more), firsthand.

  8. #35003
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    Assembly jig for twins

    Anyone know how assembled boxer and inline twins in serial production? How they ensure relative position of components without truening?
    I did some assembly jigs and making minor improvements, but may be somebody know good answer to not invent "bycycle".

  9. #35004
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Still cant stop getting annoyed when 8 of 10 clever dick ideas turn out to be flops.
    Today , of all days at 30* C you would think cooling the transfer duct outer walls would be worth a bunch of power - but no.
    Complete waste of time , so I tested and retested, doing all gear runs , as well as 6th gear WOT pulls - no power to be had.
    A huge dissapointment.
    I tested as well the expensive 3mm longer race plug , with the body machined back to put the gap close to the chamber center , again , no power at all.
    Maybe the the new shallower chamber with the semi flat top piston makes the idea redundant.
    Bugger.
    Have you tested the insulating paint on the case and transfers?

    Also the temps of the Crankcase could it be it gave no power increase as it couldn't cool them lower then the crankcase temp was already?
    did it already have between duct cooling?

  10. #35005
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitro2tfx View Post
    Lastly I take every SAE paper with a grain of salt, irregardless of topic.
    Unfortunately I have to agree with this statement. I have wasted thousands of dollars over the last 45 years on papers that disappointed. The older ones were better, maybe because they took pier review seriously. There are some real gems there but buying 20 papers to find 1 good one is not a good return on investment.

  11. #35006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vannik View Post
    Unfortunately I have to agree with this statement. I have wasted thousands of dollars over the last 45 years on papers that disappointed. The older ones were better, maybe because they took pier review seriously. There are some real gems there but buying 20 papers to find 1 good one is not a good return on investment.
    Hi Neels

    Have you ever read the Sae papers on water injection, I have never been able to find any free versions i believe it was from Fleck.

  12. #35007
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    [QUOTE=nitro2tfx;1131180584]Well maybe you should resist lol.....The first trace is from the factory header. I showed the trace at the same engine speed as for the other pipe, simply for comparison sake. Yes this factory header (4-2-1) would be more effective (better trace) at a bit lower rpm, which I have not shown, but I think we all know what it will look like at a lower rpm and this is not a 4 stroke forum so I didn't bother taking up any more space with the discussion. The first trace is what it is, for that engine and that header at THAT rpm. I have seen and worked with real exhaust traces for an extremely wide range of customer engines, from all over the world, for 20 years.

    The second trace with the deep depression is not a straight pipe, nor is it a straight pipe with a diffuser, it is a unique pipe, no one has one like it.

    Lastly I take every SAE paper with a grain of salt, irregardless of topic. Here is why. 1) I can pick out bits of BS in the few papers for which I know as much or more about the topic than the authors, so I know BS must also exist in some other papers too on topics that I don't know as much about 2) I have been involved with some SAE papers being written and there is a degree of fudging as well as over simplification that happens, regularly. To be honest I would never reference an SAE paper, if the content mattered that much to me I'd do it myself and know what's what (and more), firsthand.[/QUOTE



    What is this drama queen prancing around crying; I know something y'all don't. Either tell the story (and I dont think there is one), or don't. S'il vous plait.

  13. #35008
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    I tested as well the expensive 3mm longer race plug , with the body machined back to put the gap close to the chamber center , again , no power at all.
    Maybe the the new shallower chamber with the semi flat top piston makes the idea redundant.
    Bugger.
    Wob, have you tried to retard ignition?

    Very interesting results with trans cooling, thanks for testing.

  14. #35009
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreas View Post



    What is this drama queen prancing around crying; I know something y'all don't. Either tell the story (and I dont think there is one), or don't. S'il vous plait.
    The only story here, and it was meant to be a short story but got into diversions, is that it is possible to create a 2 stroke like pressure trace without using a 2 stroke like pipe. Basically a pressure pulse just after exhaust opening, followed by a deep depression, followed by another LARGE pressure pulse. An example real data trace was shown a few of pages back. I described how we arrived at it. The story has been told already. Drama came after that when buttons got pushed.

  15. #35010
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Hi Neels

    Have you ever read the Sae papers on water injection, I have never been able to find any free versions i believe it was from Fleck.
    "Expanding the Torque Curve of a Two-Stroke Motorcycle Race Engine by Water Injection, Robert Fleck, 931506" presented at the Small Engine Technology Conference in Pisa Italy December 1-3, 1993

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