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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #30886
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    24th January 2014 - 08:12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    The Chev Corvair flat 6 was an aluminium block where the pistons ran directly in the ally bore. I recall reading that they used a very high silicon alloy, and etched the bore so the particles of silicon provided the running surface (no doubt a lot more to it than that) - could that work with two stroke engines?
    Porsche is (or was?) using the same technology.
    I doubt it to be a good idea on a two stroke hence the piston ring would probably give to much pressure on the walls between ports and eat them for breakfast.

  2. #30887
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    12th March 2010 - 16:56
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  3. #30888
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    29th September 2015 - 22:50
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    Hi!

    I know that you guys have experience with both plated and sleeved cylinders. I have this 380 EXC witch has cracked exhaust bridges and ruined plating, and since I'm so cheap I decided to order this "universal" cylinder sleeve for hardness and elongation testing. But theres one thing that keeps bothering me - the nominal wall thickness for this sleeve it's only 1,5mm at 78mm bore, at witch I'm also intending to use it.

    Do you think that the two stroke application might need thicker sleeve walls? I know that Frits isn't a big fand of sleeve applications, but are there some heat transfer/rigidity/elongation aspects that I should worry about? At least I think that the two stroke has a lot less supporting area for the sleeve, but on the other hand, with plating there's wery little thickness to bore ratio, so the thrust forces are being transmitted to aluminium bridges without load distribution.

    And since we are talking about sleeves, what materials do you prefer for it? I've used EN-GJS-500-7C aka. GGG50 ductile cast iron bar for DIY cylinder's sleeve material, but would it be better to use ie. GGG40/GGG60/GGG70 or some softer grey cast iron for sleeve applications? Unfortunately the dealer of this universal sleeve had only one material info for this universal sleeve - "cast iron". Hence the testing of material...

    Heres some info in form of pictures:

    https://tunisti.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Rando...pg?img=img2048
    https://tunisti.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Rando...pg?img=img2048
    https://tunisti.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Rando....jpg?img=img4k

    By the way, what do you think about this driving of our RK-Teams 80cc air cooled track moped? It's been about 5 monts of self learning for the driver.

    https://youtu.be/2gVZL3CUAFU

  4. #30889
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    20th April 2011 - 08:45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunisti View Post
    I decided to order this "universal" cylinder sleeve for hardness and elongation testing. But theres one thing that keeps bothering me - the nominal wall thickness for this sleeve it's only 1,5mm at 78mm bore...
    I know that Frits isn't a big fan of sleeve applications.... Unfortunately the dealer of this universal sleeve had only one material info for this universal sleeve - "cast iron".
    By the way, what do you think about this driving of our RK-Teams 80cc air cooled track moped? https://youtu.be/2gVZL3CUAFU
    'Not a big fan' is putting it very mildly.
    I hate sleeves. And I can hardly believe a cast-iron sleeve of 78 mm bore and 1,5 mm wall thickness. I think I could crack that with my bare hands.

    The rider in your video looks alright. But do you know the expression 'seat of the pants'? With a properly fastened seat he would get much more feel for the bike.
    You'll never find a more effective lap time improvement.

  5. #30890
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    18th March 2013 - 04:44
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    Jawa 50 1989
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    There was a guy here that did modular RD cylinder for landspeed records and he did have crazy thin sleeve . Ask him how does IT holds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tunisti View Post
    Hi!

    I know that you guys have experience with both plated and sleeved cylinders. I have this 380 EXC witch has cracked exhaust bridges and ruined plating, and since I'm so cheap I decided to order this "universal" cylinder sleeve for hardness and elongation testing. But theres one thing that keeps bothering me - the nominal wall thickness for this sleeve it's only 1,5mm at 78mm bore, at witch I'm also intending to use it.

    Do you think that the two stroke application might need thicker sleeve walls? I know that Frits isn't a big fand of sleeve applications, but are there some heat transfer/rigidity/elongation aspects that I should worry about? At least I think that the two stroke has a lot less supporting area for the sleeve, but on the other hand, with plating there's wery little thickness to bore ratio, so the thrust forces are being transmitted to aluminium bridges without load distribution.

    And since we are talking about sleeves, what materials do you prefer for it? I've used EN-GJS-500-7C aka. GGG50 ductile cast iron bar for DIY cylinder's sleeve material, but would it be better to use ie. GGG40/GGG60/GGG70 or some softer grey cast iron for sleeve applications? Unfortunately the dealer of this universal sleeve had only one material info for this universal sleeve - "cast iron". Hence the testing of material...

    Heres some info in form of pictures:

    https://tunisti.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Rando...pg?img=img2048
    https://tunisti.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Rando...pg?img=img2048
    https://tunisti.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Rando....jpg?img=img4k

    By the way, what do you think about this driving of our RK-Teams 80cc air cooled track moped? It's been about 5 monts of self learning for the driver.

    https://youtu.be/2gVZL3CUAFU

  6. #30891
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    29th March 2013 - 14:57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    The Chev Corvair flat 6 was an aluminium block where the pistons ran directly in the ally bore. I recall reading that they used a very high silicon alloy, and etched the bore so the particles of silicon provided the running surface (no doubt a lot more to it than that) - could that work with two stroke engines?
    Some (at least older models) jet-skis also used that alloy, if I remenber the name/brand I will post it here.

  7. #30892
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    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    Quote Originally Posted by senso View Post
    Some (at least older models) jet-skis also used that alloy, if I remenber the name/brand I will post it here.
    I think i recall Some of the new Yams and i think the New CBR250 single use a high silicon ceramic cast in liner.

    Hi Sil is bloody hard on tools though from what i understand.
    YZF R15 makes use of DiASil (Die-casting Aluminum-Silicon) cylinder. The DiASil Cylinder is an all-aluminum cylinder made possible by an exclusive Yamaha aluminum forging technology. Because it uses a 20% silicon aluminum alloy, it is possible to create a cylinder wall that is so hard and durable that it eliminates the need for a conventional steel cylinder sleeve. And, because the cylinder is all aluminum, it has excellent heat dissipation qualities (cooling capacity is improved by 60% and reduces engine weight (by 30%) at the same time.
    https://global.yamaha-motor.com/news...nnovation.html

    uly 31, 2002

    Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd. (YMC) has succeeded in the development of an all-aluminum die-cast cylinder with 60% better cooling performance and 30% cheaper production cost than a conventional cylinder (*1). Called the Yamaha “DiASil Cylinder” (*2), this is the world’s first all-aluminum die-cast cylinder and it achieves cooling performance equivalent to that of a nickel-plated cylinder, which is currently recognized as the best in the industry, but at a significantly lower production cost than a nickel-plated cylinder.
    This new cylinder is an example of the type of a new core technology that can be “strategically important in promoting future growth,” as described in YMC’s “Next 50” (*3) mid-term policy report released in April.

    The new Yamaha “DiASil Cylinder” is a technology that brings together an ideal combination of material, manufacturing technology and environmental friendliness. The material used is a 20% silicon content aluminum alloy, the manufacturing technology is the recently developed Yamaha CF Aluminum Die-cast Technology (*4), which enables the production of an all-aluminum die-cast cylinder. It is Yamaha’s exclusive CF Aluminum Die-cast Technology that enables the mass production of a die-cast cylinder made completely of 20% silicon content aluminum alloy, something that could not be done with conventional die casting methods. This next-generation technology promises to contribute to improved function and product quality for the majority of Asian market motorcycles and automobiles that presently use conventional pistons with cast steel liners.

    Recognizing the environment-friendly nature of aluminum, YMC has made aluminum technologies part of our core technology and actively increased the use of aluminum in our products. In February of this year, YMC introduced its new Yamaha CF Aluminum Die-cast Technology as a manufacturing technology for motorcycle chassis parts that enables the mass production of die-cast aluminum parts that are both thinner and larger than was possible in the past. Now this same technology has been applied to the manufacture of engine parts. This is also a technology that can be easily transferred to our overseas Yamaha manufacturing bases. From now on, YMC also plans to apply to new areas automobile and outboard motor engine parts.



    Also a company called apitech which i have posted used squeeze formed hi sil liners although i think they still coated them.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Further stuff hereplus i posted the last page later...https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1130228977
    They are a brit based outfit and do f1 stuff and repair cylinders or at least they did.
    http://www.poetonaptec.co.uk/default.htm
    http://www.gkn.com/Pages/default.aspx


    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  8. #30893
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    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  9. #30894
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    29th March 2013 - 14:57
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    There is also alusil, and more names, but its all the same, high silicon content alu.

  10. #30895
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    The carbide embedded hi silicon alloy engine block was used by Chevrolet many years ago , and recently in Jaguar V8 .
    Bioth had all sorts of headache warranty issues in places like NZ , where there was a hi Sulphur content in the fuel that ruined the bores.
    But they can now be retrieved by simply honing and coating with traditional bore surface technology.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  11. #30896
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    16th April 2018 - 08:17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Previously I said I would post pics of the mods done to the TZ400 that won at the Shorai Challenge,
    Wobbly - This goes back a few years, but would you care to comment on the logic behind the radial and axial angles of the transfer ports from the Shorai TZ400? It looks like the trailing edge of the C port is pointing straight across the rear wall. Is that how it was left or was it hooked more towards the center of the bore?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #30897
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    That engine did not have wasted studs like the 350 engine in the LSR record holding bike.
    So there was simply no room at all to get a hook into the C port rear wall as the stud hole is only a couple of mm away.
    Same issue with the Exhaust , it would have to have oversize wasted studs to get Aux ports into it.
    The bike was ( is ) so much faster than any other Pre 82 I simply did what I could with the 350G six port cylinder and its still got too much power for the period chassis layout, as it wheelstands all the time.
    The only way to keep it under control is to speed shift the thing in the lower gears at low rpm , with the front wheel just off the deck.
    The 350 LSR engine started with a 250G cylinder , and that made over 100 Hp , and yes I have the spare cylinder sitting here with a mad plan to soon put that on the TZ bottom end in the Frepin frame.
    The only issue is that cylinder was designed to be run backwards , and in the bike , the big 40mm Lectrons clash with the monoshock , due to the welded on reedblock angle.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  13. #30898
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    18th March 2012 - 08:35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    SwePatrick this is a clear case of shit plating, clearly no bonding to the base aluminium, as witness the flaking coming off in chunks.
    However there are lots of choices. I have seen a few cylinders done by Millennium Cylinders in the US with good & economic results, but I have used NZ Cylinders (once) with good results. The latter is a bit tough to say, especially when coming from an Ozzie..
    Im going to move away from nicasil, this because i might tease the engine with som nitro in the future.
    So i want a surface that dont come loose

    Just wash away smeared aluminium with hydrochloric acid(and re-hone) if going to hot =)

  14. #30899
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    27th October 2013 - 08:53
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    patrick i put more than 11 liters nitro in the ktm this past summer and the nicasil (millenium) and devcon putty is doing fine. flush it with petrol at days end and youll be fine

  15. #30900
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    16th April 2018 - 08:17
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    That engine did not have wasted studs like the 350 engine in the LSR record holding bike.
    So there was simply no room at all to get a hook into the C port rear wall as the stud hole is only a couple of mm away.
    Same issue with the Exhaust , it would have to have oversize wasted studs to get Aux ports into it.
    The bike was ( is ) so much faster than any other Pre 82 I simply did what I could with the 350G six port cylinder and its still got too much power for the period chassis layout, as it wheelstands all the time.
    The only way to keep it under control is to speed shift the thing in the lower gears at low rpm , with the front wheel just off the deck.
    The 350 LSR engine started with a 250G cylinder , and that made over 100 Hp , and yes I have the spare cylinder sitting here with a mad plan to soon put that on the TZ bottom end in the Frepin frame.
    The only issue is that cylinder was designed to be run backwards , and in the bike , the big 40mm Lectrons clash with the monoshock , due to the welded on reedblock angle.
    Yes, of course, the studs! How about the axial angles and stagger? Is this a Frits-leaning-tower strategy or something completely different due to less than perfect port placement?

    I also have an EngMod2T observation you may be able to explain. With the standard practice of making squish tight as practical, I thought I would see what this looks like in EngMod. It seems going from huge squish (15m/s) to tight squish (30+m/s) in EngMod doesn't seem to change the burn rate much. I'm basing this off HP, TuBMax and MaxDeg moving relatively little when making a big squish change. Compression and timing make a much bigger difference to the point the squish change seems almost negligible. Is that normal? Is there a different output in EngMod that shows the benefit of tight squish?

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