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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #34321
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Alex,

    2. Flat rail ring, but with a pegged inner projection. See pic. With the 2 piece piston, a suitable vertical pin would control the radial movement. Could allow for adjustment by elongating the hole to allow for ring wear. Alternatively a vertical pin permanently installed, via the crown, thru the hole on the ring. Would be a total pain to work with though.

    Attachment 347236
    Nice suggestions Ken, one of them are strangely familiar.

    Quote Originally Posted by adegnes View Post
    Here's a variation on my "pinned" ring idea.

    Attachment 339223

    The ring is located with the hole in the middle of the 100% exhaust port.
    The cylinder could be turned 90° to normal orientation and the pin could be pressed(or threaded) into the piston from the underside through a hole in the wrispin boss.
    A conventional piston could be used, and as the exhaust side of the wristpin would never encounter any transfer ports, only that side would need to be blocked, maybe even just plugging the pin with something would suffice.

    Watcha think? Mumbo jumbo?

    I could happily spend the rest of my days failing trying "stupid" stuff.
    My neighbor works at a place they do wire cutting(and grinding), if we move away from the partial "T" ring I'll ask how they feel about doing it for me.

    Sorry for being so short, really appreciate the input, lots of stuff on the plate atm.
    Check out my YouTube channel! - 2STROKE STUFFING -
    https://www.youtube.com/2STROKESTUFFING
    Two strokes & rum!

  2. #34322
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    SwePatrick , yes your system is fine - using a very small rotor as you have.
    I spent days , just like you did , years ago trying to discover why my new TZ based race engine was misfiring past 6000 rpm.
    It had a new 100mm rotor on it as is used in many Chinese pit bikes.
    This had a long ( 45mm ) lobe and I used two triggers.

    In deperation I put a scope on the trigger signal , and discovered that the output from the reluctor coil in the trigger would jump up as soon as the lobe front edge passed the pole.
    But about 1/2 way along the lobe , the signal was gone.
    And as the ECU is designed to be seeing the falling signal off the trailing edge ( where there was no signal ) it got lost.
    So I cut the lobe length in 1/2 , down to about 20mm and suddenly all was fine.

    Later I discovered Ignitech had a " long lobe " option , but I have never tested this.

    One other point regarding your small trigger rotor setup. This is exactly what HRC used on the RS125 factory bikes with a total loss battery system.
    They discovered that with the stock crank , and the very small inertia flywheel plate , they lost a huge amount of overev power.
    Thus part of the total loss kitset was a new crank , with alot of extra heavy metal around the wheels to get back the inertia lost from removing the flywheel.
    VHM made high inertia cranks for the same reason - in effect loosing any advantage in acceleration gained from taking off the flywheel.
    This effect was first seen at Queens Uni where Dr Fleck discovered that the same engine made more power on a eddy current dyno with more inertia.
    His opinion was that the extra inertia reduced the in cycle speed difference of the crank as it was sped up on the power stroke - effectively slowing down the crank at BDC , thus giving more time to the
    transfer STA number in reality.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  3. #34323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makr View Post
    Good thoughts Ken. I wish I had an EDM.

    I used a ductile iron for Alex's rings and the ones in my engine (although I hard chromed the ones in mine).

    I was going to use 8620 (not sure what alloy is comparable in your world) carburizing grade steel and mask everything but the face of the ring, and then Nitride it. Getting anyone to do a moly or similar has turned into a dead end on my budget for now.

    When I made the first rings for Alex I did a 1mm ring and after I hardening it was way too stiff. The T section adds too much material. I drew the hardness back until it was reasonable. I think going to a .5 mm ring and cutting some of the T away will allow me to keep it stiff and have reasonable wear for this prototype stage.


    What do you think?

    Makr
    Mark, Can see you have considered many options. Obviously one main consideration with anything you may want to try is to make it as easy as possible. To me, getting wire cutting is relatively easy, just sandwich the flat stock between two aluminium plates (in my case we had to cos the material was very thin 0.2 mm). Easy for me as I have a buddy that looks after a machine at a local uni, but still relatively cheap and . Just a simple .dxf file. If you can hard chrome the edge and finish it, then this looks the go, for flat rail type rings anyway.

    If Alex is experiencing premature wear of the ring, possibly due to the composition of the plating or honing finish, then a chrome edged ring may be helpful.
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  4. #34324
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    18th March 2012 - 08:35
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    SwePatrick , yes your system is fine - using a very small rotor as you have.
    I spent days , just like you did , years ago trying to discover why my new TZ based race engine was misfiring past 6000 rpm.
    It had a new 100mm rotor on it as is used in many Chinese pit bikes.
    This had a long ( 45mm ) lobe and I used two triggers.

    In deperation I put a scope on the trigger signal , and discovered that the output from the reluctor coil in the trigger would jump up as soon as the lobe front edge passed the pole.
    But about 1/2 way along the lobe , the signal was gone.
    And as the ECU is designed to be seeing the falling signal off the trailing edge ( where there was no signal ) it got lost.
    So I cut the lobe length in 1/2 , down to about 20mm and suddenly all was fine.

    Later I discovered Ignitech had a " long lobe " option , but I have never tested this.

    One other point regarding your small trigger rotor setup. This is exactly what HRC used on the RS125 factory bikes with a total loss battery system.
    They discovered that with the stock crank , and the very small inertia flywheel plate , they lost a huge amount of overev power.
    Thus part of the total loss kitset was a new crank , with alot of extra heavy metal around the wheels to get back the inertia lost from removing the flywheel.
    VHM made high inertia cranks for the same reason - in effect loosing any advantage in acceleration gained from taking off the flywheel.
    This effect was first seen at Queens Uni where Dr Fleck discovered that the same engine made more power on a eddy current dyno with more inertia.
    His opinion was that the extra inertia reduced the in cycle speed difference of the crank as it was sped up on the power stroke - effectively slowing down the crank at BDC , thus giving more time to the
    transfer STA number in reality.
    I suspected i had to long triggers at first so i actually cut them down also
    But there was no difference, so i started to look elsewhere
    And as it seems it all works now, it was my caution that was the problem

    And yes i know about the flywheeleffect and overrev, but keep in mind this is a dragbike, overrev isn't important as on a trackbike, i donīt need the couple of hundreds extra rpm in a bend to keep traction or balance, instead i shift gear and aiming as straight as i can

    Iīm trying to keep engine in the happy place, between max torque and peak power, overrevving it will make it hit the next gear away from the max torque.

  5. #34325
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    The trapped ring issue.

    First things first, the ring need to rest on a complete flat surface, also should the ring be completely flat on the underside.
    Any produding metal will disturb the seal as the pressure from above will creep.

    Second thing, you might have to guide the pressure to help the ring seal correctly.
    As i noticed in a clip from Alex, only 50psi,, thatīs a huge problem there.
    You need way higher pressure to get a complete burn.
    About 130-170psi, favorable at the upper value and some high octane fuel.

    And third thing as been mentioned before, the ring need to be able to hold on to the cylinder and still let the piston rock.

    https://www.thn.nl/en/product-line/p...ton-ring-types

    I would say c1 c3 c7 and cl, all with a touch of c9 is what is mostly used.
    the more rocking piston the more touch of c9 they should have.

  6. #34326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    This could become be a high and mighty engine Neil. Are you contemplating a chin-rest on the upper crankcase?
    Attachment 346393

    I guess you already knew him

    https://www.moto-collection.org/blog...-opposes-1935/

  7. #34327
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    .
    Genius ....



    50cc swept volume, 390cc crankcase volume, target 30+ hp. Racing two strokes, they are not air pumps. For mass air flow through the system. It is all about resonance.

  8. #34328
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    Pre-chamber ignition maserati m20

    Wonder if it would be possible to implement this technology in a 2 stroke, someone with a lot of time might try!

    They claim 15% more compression without detonation, for example


    https://www.enginetechnologyinternat...ainstream.html

    Click image for larger version. 

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    No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.

  9. #34329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muhr View Post
    Wonder if it would be possible to implement this technology in a 2 stroke, someone with a lot of time might try!

    They claim 15% more compression without detonation, for example


    https://www.enginetechnologyinternat...ainstream.html

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It was a question I asked a few pages back. Apparently someone somewhere is working on it, with good results, though details are scarce.

  10. #34330
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    I guess something like this would be usefull for an OP uniflow combustion chamber.

  11. #34331
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyfumi View Post
    It was a question I asked a few pages back. Apparently someone somewhere is working on it, with good results, though details are scarce.
    Maserati's patent is more of a poor man's version, without an extra injector unlike what you drive in f1

    https://drivetribe.com/p/f1-burning-...Tq6irMfdxMqxLg
    No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.

  12. #34332
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    Thumbs up Good progress.

    Finally made some progress.
    I got the clutch to hold the power, finally.
    So now it became measurable power

    I also in the middle of testing things rejetted it for E85 fuel, just for insurance against detonating(more octane)
    I just took random drill i had that were a bit bigger than the jets in the carb, so i actually dunno the sizes.
    Pilotjet likewise *lol*

    But i felt that it can take som more fuel as it did 'boooo' a little before hot.
    The pulls were made on third gear so they are quite short(3-4seconds), the pipes didnīt build all the heat needed for the engine to pull harder on top, pipes are tuned for 12500rpm on petrol, and as i run e85 i got colder exhausts.
    Little bit more fuel and making pulls on 4th och 5th gear, maybe 6th will probably take me north of 80hp at the crank (now 76,3 at the crank) as it will raise the peak rpm.

    And the wavy curves tell me it is still some left on the table, as they often smoothes out when you get in the ballpark of what they want.

    But still,, good progress!


    Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #34333
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    Two stroke dyno run of a different kind........

  14. #34334
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    EGT and CHT

    Now I seem to have decent EGT and CHT data coming from my new MyChron5, I'm looking for some guidelines as to how to determine the spark advance based on the EGT and CHT values.

    My thinking. If the ignition is slightly retarded and mixture correct, the EGT and CHT would be on the low side.
    If the ignition was correct and the mixture was a bit rich, that to would give lower EGT and CHTs.

    Can you differentiate between advance and mixture from the readings?
    ........Rules are for fools and a guide for the wise ..............

    http://www.marshland.co.nz

  15. #34335
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    You are not paid to think , if the spark is retarded the EGT will be high , the CHT low.
    That is a relative statement , as at this time you dont know where the tune actaully is.

    The raw numbers ie max recall are pretty much irrelevant , its the rate of climb , of both cht and egt as you pull thru the rpm power range that is important.
    CHT and EGT climbing in unison means all is good and safe , if you are using fine wire Platinum plugs then as you get close to optimum spark advance the distinct colour change on the earth electrode
    will be at about 1/3 up from the weld.
    Then as you lean down , the egt rate of climb will slow as you near peak power , and if you go one leaner with no increase in egt , and the cht is still climbing ,then its beginning to deto.

    That is where you do a test to see if a little retard will bring the egt max up again.
    The idea is to find the minimum advance that will generate max power with a certain fuel flow. Using fuel to cool an over advanced engine will make alot less power than a slightly retarded spark and a lean jet.
    But that scenario means the bsfc is high ( Kgs fuel/Hp/Hr ) , and more power is to be found with optimum spark as well as the leanest jet , up to the limit where the egt starts to slow down its rate of climb nearing peak power.

    Then of course you havnt even looked at compression.
    All 3 of the main ingredients , advance , com , jet are equally important. But one is super simple to ballpark immediately - and that is , if the com and jet are close then the peak power advance will be 15* btdc.
    If it makes best power on the leanest allowable jet at 18* advance , then the com is too low , and visa versa.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

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