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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #34186
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    20th June 2020 - 07:10
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    Question regarding pipe wall temp and EngMod2t inputs.. I cant afford to dyno test regularly so improvising is a necessity right now. We run cvt drive snowmobiles over here and I have devised a plan to test once we have snow. Since the engine rpm is influenced by the cvt system that uses a primary drive clutch and a secondary driven clutch. In order to determine when the engine is starting to get on the pipe I have manufactured this spacer (which I intend to replace with a safer quality unit) to stop the primary drive from closing completely. It limits how much the spring can close and is set so there is just enough belt pressure to move the machine. If I slowly roll into the run and ramp the rpms up my thought is that by watching the tachometer I will be able to tell when the engine begins to get on and then off the pipe. Also included is a photo of CHT thermocouples that I intend to fasten to the pipe wall at various places during this test. By facing a go-pro video camera at the gauges I effectively have a usable datalogger. I understand inner wall temp is used in the program, but could this method be accurately used?
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  2. #34187
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    I have done exactly as you are proposing to do , this info was needed by Neels when he was implementing the wall temp varying with rpm option.
    But I data logged the temp after doing several all gear runs , then 3 pulls in top gear averaged.
    In all of the race engines I have modelled , produced a pipe , built it and dyno tested it , much the same wall temps work in testing as in the sim.
    With the final header egt reaching 620*C every time, the average pipe wall temp starts at 325 under the pipe ( 8,000 for a KZ engine ) and reaches 425 at peak power ( 13500 for the KZ again ).
    The problem with measuring the wall outer temp is that the header is hottest , but has a very small area comparred to the mid section temp.
    The end of the rear cone ( about 1/3 up from the stinger ) is 1/2 way between those two temps , and that too is of much smaller surface area than the cooler mid section.
    Those average numbers I found were worked backwards from the dyno result of existing pipes, and gave identical powerband shape and peak power rpm in the sim.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  3. #34188
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    20th June 2020 - 07:10
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    Re wall temps *edited*
    So you are saying that every race engine you have tested with 620 C EGT in the header, your prescribed wall temps of 325 and 425 have been spot on? I am a bit confused as to if your findings while performing the test I am proposing worked or if you ended up plugging numbers in until things lined up in the sim and dyno test? I guess my main question would be; if I install 4 outside wall thermocouples on the pipe in the proper places, will I end up with 325 start of powerband and 425 peak?

  4. #34189
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    Short answer is no , because it way difficult to calculate the average wall temps due to the temp/area problem , plus you are measuring outside.
    As I have such a huge database of pipes and engines that have been thru the sim , build , dyno process , it was easy to check backwards from the dyno result to see what
    average wall temps were being generated with my self impossed "tuning target " of 620*C in the header.
    Some engines made best power at 650 in the header , but using a simple ratio increasing by 650/620 worked just as well.
    In the case where using really good fuel ( 110 leaded ) allowed 680*C on track ( SKUSA ) the pipes designed for 620 simply reved to the moon , but this proved to be a huge tuning aid in that we could use
    the gained rpm range to go faster on the same gear , or re gear it to gain off corner acceleration with identical terminal speed.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  5. #34190
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    16th April 2018 - 08:17
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    Wobbly - thanks for sharing about the pipe temp. I'm still a little foggy on measurement locations for your average wall temp method. Do you measure outside wall temp at center section and at rear cone 1/3 up from stinger? Just two measurements? I assume your header measurement is an internal EGT and not used in the average?

    Would it make any sense to put an open tip EGT into the pipe towards the end of the rear core or maybe even in the stinger? I'm thinking it would give you a one point snapshot of how hot the gases were after running the whole course of the pipe?

  6. #34191
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    Where you do your best thinking, a bit of inspiration:
    https://www.facebook.com/17266633985...630379114/?t=3
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

  7. #34192
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    20th June 2020 - 07:10
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    I will attempt to simplify. It is becoming evident that Neels and Wobbly have developed variables that work, so we do not need to measure up and down the pipe. Doing so without the proper equipment and technique would just add headaches. If the pipe was say 80mm diameter the entire way through, we could perhaps gather the temp data easily and accurately. But since the header is smaller than the center section and so on, it adds more math to the dynamics of what is already going on temp wise in the pipe. Lastly the number relies on inner wall temp and not outer wall temp. Wall temp and EGT are not one in the same. Wobbly knows what his target EGT was for every engine he has tested, (typically 620) so they developed inputs (325 and 425) for us to use. If the engine made better power at 650 you would use the simple math noted above to adjust your wall input variables. It is my best guess that the extra options were added to Data2t for completeness. If I am not understanding this I wish to be corrected.

  8. #34193
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    20th April 2011 - 08:45
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    As I have such a huge database of pipes and engines that have been thru the sim , build , dyno process , it was easy to check backwards from the dyno result to see what average wall temps were being generated with my self impossed "tuning target " of 620*C in the header.
    Some engines made best power at 650 in the header , but using a simple ratio increasing by 650/620 worked just as well.
    Wob, the ratio in your example would be 650 / 620 = 1,048 . But wouldn't it be better to determine the ratio using absolute temperatures?
    Then we would find (650 + 273) / (620 + 273) = 1,034.
    Not much of a difference, I'll admit, but still a difference.

  9. #34194
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    Passed through Greymouth the other day and visited my favorite hardware shop.

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ID:	346656 Loved the OHS Occupational Health and Safety sign.

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ID:	346657 If only.

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    Such an amazing example of early West Coast ingenuity. Absolutely love it.

    Link to a previous visit and a lot more photos of other bikes and interesting things.
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Work had me in Greymouth the last week.

  10. #34195
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    16th April 2018 - 08:17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condyn View Post
    Wobbly knows what his target EGT was for every engine he has tested, (typically 620°) so they developed inputs (325° and 425°) for us to use. If the engine made better power at 650° you would use the simple math noted above to adjust your wall input variables. It is my best guess that the extra options were added to Data2t for completeness. If I am not understanding this I wish to be corrected.
    Condyn, thanks for the reply. The reason I ask is because I believe the snowmobile application, especially drag racing, won't be using these wall temps. While you may see the 620-650C at the header EGT, I seem to get wildly unrealistic results using 425C at peak power. This gets back to my original inquiry of measurement points to create a temp profile for a very different application. I know Wob did some drag racing (Banshee?) work where pipe wall temps might be more comparable to snowmobile application.

  11. #34196
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyincat View Post
    Condyn, thanks for the reply. The reason I ask is because I believe the snowmobile application, especially drag racing, won't be using these wall temps. While you may see the 620-650C at the header EGT, I seem to get wildly unrealistic results using 425C at peak power. This gets back to my original inquiry of measurement points to create a temp profile for a very different application. I know Wob did some drag racing (Banshee?) work where pipe wall temps might be more comparable to snowmobile application.
    We almost need to take an engine that works very well at 425C with matching curves on both dyno and the sim, with the same egt in the header that we are using in our snowmobiles, measure the outer wall temp on that engine in many specific places, and measure the outer wall temp on our engines the same way. Maybe with the correct math we can then create a scale that makes the outer wall temp measurements useful? We would likely also need to add a volume to surface area ratio calculation. It really is frustrating isnt it?

  12. #34197
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    Frits , yes absolutely correct if I was supervising another PhD thesis , but using Kelvin the difference is 5.9*C and this is totally insignificant such that I doubt any change would be visible
    in any of the sim outputs.
    And yes , trying to ascertain the average inner wall temp is a math logistical nighmare , easy to datalog as I did with PK screws holding K thermocouples in place, but quickly shown the
    too hard basket when trying to use the data.
    For the very specific Snow application , you only need one dyno session to get the best power egt , then using the power curve that gives you , input the start and end wall temp numbers in the sim
    to generate an identical shape and peak rpm correlation.
    These numbers will then work ad infinitum to enable you to rely on the results given by new pipe geometries.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  13. #34198
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    29th March 2013 - 14:57
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreas View Post
    Although your engine has the long cylinder studs, it seems someone has managed to have aux ex-ports in it. Might be worth looking into.
    The NS1 cylinder has a bridge port exhaust and not the single oval as the 50cc, or the older MBX air cooled cylinders.

  14. #34199
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    13th December 2018 - 18:06
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    Yes, I had the impression it was just one port.

  15. #34200
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    2nd March 2013 - 15:04
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    Quote Originally Posted by senso View Post
    The NS1 cylinder has a bridge port exhaust and not the single oval as the 50cc, or the older MBX air cooled cylinders.
    The NS-1 75cc engine was just a slightly underbored NSR80 engine.
    I'm guessing that the reduced capacity was to meet a European learner bike limit.
    The original NS-1 was Japan-only and a 50. Otherwise the same bike.

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