My idea of Production 600 rules

[jrandom]

Dan...your not qualified to have humble opinions in that area...sorry!

I know. Just going on the numbers, mind you.

But does that mean you disagree with it?

[Robert Taylor]

What do you propose then for a COST EFFECTIVE alternative for a production class? Please dont preach tyre wear etc this time

How do World superstock do it?

Whats a RRP and trade in price for a ttx 36 and 25mm fork kit?

Im all for the best suspension around but if everyone cant afford to have it then I guess it isnt a fair thing

Ive already stated that elsewhere and tyre wear is by no means an irrelevant issue. We can experience that with good suspension ( as you well know ) but at least that stuff is actually designed to be pulled apart and tuned easily! As you also know there is ( unashamedly ) a high level of sincerity with the backup service I personally offer.

It is not a habit of mine to state pricing on forums, to preclude dutch auctions. As you know my business is prepared to trade such equipment, the product has excellent residual value.

Arguably you can often purchase a quality aftermarket shock second hand for about the same price as a reworked and resprung oem shock. Ive done the exercise / anaylsis ( and I dont mean modification of oem by Heath Robinson methods )

In the end event ( and Shaun Im not directing this at you ) people will only believe what they want to believe.

[cowpoos]

How do World superstock do it?

they are pretty much the same spec as our superbikes actually!

[cowpoos]

I know. Just going on the numbers, mind you.

But does that mean you disagree with it?

put it this way...if they were legal...I would be tempted!

[jrandom]

put it this way...if they were legal...I would be tempted!

Course you'd be tempted, an 848 would easily be the fastest bike on paper in any supersport grid, that's my point.

Have you ridden one? The guy who sits next to me at work (so to speak) just bought one. It's veeeeery nice, and he's veeeery accommodating...

[Skunk]

And that is why we ( already ) have lower cost classes.

Not in larger capacity bikes we don't. Buckets and Streetstock don't really suit everyone. F3 is too open on the bikes (chequebook racing can show up). Stock will show up the RIDER.

I have top of the line ohlins fork kit and shock that someone could have for 3k add that to a 2008 zx6r s/h with low ks for 11k chuck on some fairings a pipe and some rearsets and you have a competitive bike for less then the price of a new 600....

I dont have any offers flooding in so i suspect even if there was this new great production class i doubt 99% of you that are saying its affordable I wanna race etc etc will do anything about it!

Anyone keen to give me $15k and ill organise you a competitive sports production bike? If the answer is no then theres your answer for production racing imo

Hardly. I know someone who has just sold everything - including his road bike, bedside tables - the works and is taking on a second job just to buy and race a 600. It's not even a current model let alone new. Finding another $3000 just isn't possible. Sometimes $3000 is just $2999 too much. Sooner or later a class needed where the chequebook is not the winning factor.
Shaun's idea could be it.

[brads]

.

I don't want to have to compete with engineers and chequebooks, I want to compete with riders.

.

Sorry mate,your in the wrong sport then.Even in so called proddy racing there will always be someone who can find that little bit extra inside the rules,or out.

[brads]

If I'm good enough at that, then it might be worth some serious sponsorship and dollars and time to step up to "modified" racing. I know I'm pretty good, but I also know I'm not worth a $40,000 per year investment... yet. I know I can't stick with the likes of Stroud and Shirriffs and smith and Lawrence, but I definitely had the potential, just not the money, the track time, or the equipment, or the experience, or the support. This is going to break down many hurdles. Good effort Shaun and.

If you dont mind me asking,how did you know you had the potential?

[brads]

Arrgh, RT are you not getting the message you're posting 5 times as often as anyone else which gives you the impression that the arguing sides numbers are balance. And you're nitpicking at tiny parts of peoples posts which creates for lots of large annoying posts. Try to cut and paste the bits you want to discuss into the one post, and learn to use the quote function properly, it's a lot more simple than suspension dynamics.

sorry

[Shaun]

sorry

No one likes your Sheep

[Buddha#81:Me]

.......there will always be someone who can find that little bit extra inside the rules,or out.

Infinatly harder when the bike it taken away after the meeting and all bikes preped by the same person.......Unless Shaun is going to be brought?

[Mishy]

Nice work Glen, it's good that you have come up with something constructive and well thought out. One point seems clear, stock is stock - no extra this or modified that, we have a class for those modifications, and it's working fine at the moment - even if there are those who are not fans
To all those that see this as the holy grail of fairness - get real. The only way it'll work like that is if you take Shaun's approach and hold the bikes between meetings, otherwise time and money spent testing (which is a big part of why the fast get faster and faster) will get one rider further than another strictly due to cash input. That's motorsport for you.
And to those who rubbish the link between suspension and tyres - stop and have a good think, they are TOTALLY linked, and you simply can't consider one without considering the other. The guys that design the tyres even talk about them as part of a dynamic system that includes the shock/fork
That shouldn't be read as meaning I am anti a stock class - I'm not, I just hope that many out there would use good advice to understand the various merits of what's being discussed here, and what It means for the big picture, as well as the initial cost.
Roberts point about residual value of shocks is a fair one, and the same can't often (in reality) be said for used race tyres if you have any scuples

[Sketchy_Racer]

Looks good to me! People are gonna cheat though....

Also to include the ducati 848 could be a good idea

Of course people are going to cheat. Do you not think there is cheating currently going on in NZ racing? I would think that a Proddy class would help "spot the cheater" easier than any other class - less variables.

Actually it wouldnt level the playing field as much as you think. For example riders that are tall with lot of body mass ( eg Nick Cole ) would not only require firmer springing but also damping upgrades. Damping is as much overcome by body mass as is springing.
Stock engines yes, but allow an aftermarket muffler and fairings( to reduce the replacement cost of crash damage ) aftermarket ECU ( to sort out the dodgy fueling on some models ) rework / replace fork internals ( various options available) and aftermarket rear shock ( so that spring rates and valving can be customised to the rider stats and style )
What is often overlooked is that unlike many other components aftermarket suspension has residual value in that you can resell it. A very strong second hand market has been created. Answering for myself I am very active in that market as it better suits many peoples budgets.

It may not level the feild hugely when it comes to riders attributes (both physical and Style) but it will certainly level the feild financially.
Major manufactures must surely factor in different weight riders and compensate for them with there suspension. They have to sell their bikes to all sorts of people after all.

Actually no, the man hours spent in getting rear shocks to work as close as possible to aftermarket would be considerable. I have analysed/ costed this at length. And geometry changes are no so quick and convenient.

That answers the consideration to possibly allow shocks and forks to be re-valved etc. It is too expensive.

stock lines are absaloutly fine...

Great, no need for aftermarket

Ponder this....what bike mags say is often totally proportional to the advertising dollars spent.

There must be some truth in there articles, and above comment backs up that they are fine.

Otherwise

This proves that words on paper really mean less and less each day. I'm going to quit reading soon, everything written is BS.

I keep hearing everyone say they cant afford a bike to be competitive cause they cant afford the suspension etc etc

I have top of the line ohlins fork kit and shock that someone could have for 3k add that to a 2008 zx6r s/h with low ks for 11k chuck on some fairings a pipe and some rearsets and you have a competitive bike for less then the price of a new 600....

I dont have any offers flooding in so i suspect even if there was this new great production class i doubt 99% of you that are saying its affordable I wanna race etc etc will do anything about it!

Anyone keen to give me $15k and ill organise you a competitive sports production bike? If the answer is no then theres your answer for production racing imo

A bike in that state would not be competitive at all. 11k for bike 3k for suspension. 1.5k for fairings, 2k for pipe, .5k for power commander, 2k for engine work, .5k for rear sets.

Even then that would only be scraping the barrel of being competitive in SP600.

Oh and I do want to race, and am doing/trying to do something about it, don't you worry.

Learn dude learn...if youy are that fast you will have to anyway.
You don't get to the top of anything in life with out hard work and sacrifice..
if you put a average effort in...you get average result out..

I think the sort of thing you and glenn are pushing for is grossly unfair...you guy weight shit all of anything...stock bike DO NOT HANDLE...I say that again...DO NOT HANDLE WELL!!! for heavier people...and taller people...I don't car what crasher and scrivy say...pete is a lil fella and scrivy is hardly big...neither yourself or sketch are big either....so why penilise us?? because that is what your doing...shaun is also not a big man. I rode the 810 how he had it set up for its originoal owner...and glenn was not a big man but he loved it!...but to me..handled like a piece of shit...put the brakes on...straight into a vicious stoppie after blowing through the full stroke of the forks in a instant...turned way way too fast...and I screwed a brand new rear racetech in three sessions at a manfield test day..dispite the ohlins on the rear..why all this??? the suspension was completely wrong for my size and weight... but that same bike...before I rode it...was praised so so very very highly by White trash as being the best bike he had ever riden...doing everything he asked of it...and felt fantastic...can you imagine why that could be??? it is the lack of physical precence the dude has...[thats a nice way of saying it aye Jimmie]...

So tell me...not just you Vtec...any of you...how wrong I am???

and yes...I think Shauns concept is good...cheap racing!! he's bound to get peoples attention...and he has..and good on him!!...but it far from provides a level playing field...supersport is much closer.

But hey...we have protwins...if you want to go faster...we have supersport. and motorsport ain't cheap...deal with it!! and the people at the top have paid for a hell of alot of lunches in thier time!!

Ever decided to lose a few KGs.. if YOU were that committed to your racing then you would put in the hard yards and effort to drop the KGs? yes no?
Obviously some are naturally bigger than others, but if you feel to your to big to be competitive in this class, you're going to hit the same issue later on if you want to chase racing beyond NZ.

Nice work Glen, it's good that you have come up with something constructive and well thought out. One point seems clear, stock is stock - no extra this or modified that, we have a class for those modifications, and it's working fine at the moment - even if there are those who are not fans
To all those that see this as the holy grail of fairness - get real. The only way it'll work like that is if you take Shaun's approach and hold the bikes between meetings, otherwise time and money spent testing (which is a big part of why the fast get faster and faster) will get one rider further than another strictly due to cash input. That's motorsport for you.
And to those who rubbish the link between suspension and tyres - stop and have a good think, they are TOTALLY linked, and you simply can't consider one without considering the other. The guys that design the tyres even talk about them as part of a dynamic system that includes the shock/fork
That shouldn't be read as meaning I am anti a stock class - I'm not, I just hope that many out there would use good advice to understand the various merits of what's being discussed here, and what It means for the big picture, as well as the initial cost.
Roberts point about residual value of shocks is a fair one, and the same can't often (in reality) be said for used race tyres if you have any scuples

Hey Mishy,

Thanks, and I agree with you, that the current class works very well. As I have mentioned else where, maybe with a class like what I propose running alongside the current SP600 rules could be adjusted to make the current SP bikes more internationally competitive. As far as I know, there are to many restrictions on our bikes to turn them easily into international race bikes.

I am well aware that this will not be the huge leveler that some believe it will be. I think it will be a financial leveler for sure.

Also of course there will be cheaters, there always will be in life. It is to be expected, but as I have mentioned earlier, do you not believe that there is cheating going on in current classes? Of course there is, it's just harder to spot.



Cheers all,

-Glen

[wharfy]

But hey...we have protwins...if you want to go faster...we have supersport. and motorsport ain't cheap...deal with it!! and the people at the top have paid for a hell of alot of lunches in thier time!!

Part of the point of this thread is that pro-twins aren't STOCK, and are (from what I have gleamed ) quite expensive. This class is not for people at the top, it is for people ON THEIR WAY to the top and those of us who aren't going anywhere to have racing that is fair, fun, safe AND affordable.

WE KNOW motor sport isn't cheap - this is one of the ways we are dealing with it.

[brads]

No one likes your Sheep

Sheep?? no sheep down here dude