Sensible approach to drugs...

[Mikkel]

Mate, you did say it was preferable for your children, that's implying that it's not damaging. It makes a mess of people. I agree with headbanger on this one. Candor obviously knows a fair bit about it all aswell, he'll most likely come back with a reference. Maybe you could find us some evidence that the endorphin system isn't affected permanently by Heroin, cause there's always something not quite right with heroin abusers even long after they've quit and moved on. They seem hollow.

Jebus, first you read my post regarding addicts loosing their politeness filter as being directed at you. Not the case.

Then you go ahead and put words in my mouth... I said heroin was preferable to P. That's not the same as saying I'm going to spoon-feed it to them.

You on the other hand agree with someone who suggests taking drug addicts and hunt them for sport? If that isn't ugly, tell me what is.

And yes, candor makes post, with no references at all, refuting points of the earlier discussion - and then you make an about turn and assume he knows more.

All of the references found earlier in this thread by you and me have not indicated that permanent brain damage is likely to occur through use of heroin. Quite the contrary the claims seems to be that the addiction is the worst of the consequences of heroin addiction...

I'm not saying heroin isn't some seriously bad shit, because it is. The purpose of this thread was simply to direct people's attention at the fact that Switzerland has amended decriminalisation of heroin and is giving it away for free to addicts. That and to remark that I found it positive that some places are starting to have a more sensible approach to drugs than "it's bad, so let's make it illegal". A mindset that is also being applied in this country, among so many others, and which has failed miserably at abolishing the drug problem no less.

[hospitalfood]

well, it was always going to be one of those threads..........
most people know fuck all about drugs and addiction, i stopped reading the posts about half way through.
i have taken a bit of smack in my time, lots of speed ( or P for you young ones ), lots of acid, lots of E and heaps of pot..........and most of it the hard way.

all i do these days is have a beer or 5

same old same old..........guns dont kill people, people kill people.
a serious addict will form a habit with anything........
methadone is 10 times worse than smack from a health perspective, so give them smack.

if anybody reading this has a drug problem or family members etc with drug problems and needs help or support PM me and i can give advice and put you in touch with professional alcohol and drug workers.

[Headbanger]

me, lots of speed ( or P for you young ones ),

The difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine is quite sizeable.

My extended social group dabbled heavily with the old stuff for decades, Those that parted hard with the new gear are ruined.

[RantyDave]

Other drugs in this basket are cocaine, P, crystal meth, speed, ecstacy.

You're putting MDMA in the same basket as P, Crystal Meth and Cocaine? Are you serious?

Dave

[candor]

References Mikkel. A bit heavy reading though. BTW it always was OD risk that triggered panic over heroin and gave impetus to the war on drugs in America.
Fact - During the 1960s, heroin addiction was the leading cause of death in African American men in New York City. And that trend went cross cultural and spread to all urban areas in the 1970's. The major concern definitely was about 1000's dying, moreso than about crime imo. See below article for intro.

Opioid system deficiency explanation plus a good history of the dependency / addiction problem here -
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/164/3/277
(Treating opioid dependence review)
Scroll down to "SCIENTIFIC BASIS OF OPIOID MAINTENANCE" for the guts

Opioid system in brain and alcohol - http://www.springerlink.com/content/d4k3q5pbp05kmy44/
Autopsys on dead street bums known only to drink which found high opioid levels in brain first suggested that alcoholics might truly just be addicted to their own natural opioids (heroin), that gets a production boost when they drink due to some genetic variation.

Cannabis and opioid system http://biopsychiatry.com/canopioid.htm
http://www.nature.com/tpj/journal/v6.../6500375a.html And more showing it alters opioid function in foetus as well as adult

Real complicated stuff about the genes, opioid systems in brain and how this fuels addiction is here in places if you can persevere;
http://www.wikigenes.org/e/gene/e/4988.html

A good US doco aired lately showing how experts are really heading toward a unified theory of addiction - it seems to have the same basis within the brain almost regardless of the substance one is hooked on. And yes this applies to chocolate - food addiction. The theory says the brain responds by changes in opioid and maybe dopamine system function. So to grossly simplify all drug dependents are basically hooked on natural heroin their body either produces or simply takes in ()in case of heroin adiction)when they use. Usually because drug use has resulted in a deficit - perhaps helped along by genes that make you not a great natural producer of human opioids.

Addiction workers are excited by this bevy of research now getting organised as it means addiction is a biolofgical physical based disease (caused by brain imbalances) not a character weakness or immorality type thing. And so physical treatments can be the easy fix in future. "A pill for every ill" but then one wonders if pharm companies fund the studies....

This is why scientists are now proposing to give the heroin substitute methadone to the amphetamine addicts, which on the face of it is illogical until you realise the brain has same underlying disorder- this in the news last week. http://www.readybb.com/watchdog/viewtopic.php?t=9699
And may also later treat alcoholics with synthetic heroin.

[Mikkel]

BTW it always was OD risk that triggered panic over heroin and gave impetus to the war on drugs in America.
Fact - During the 1960s, heroin addiction was the leading cause of death in African American men in New York City. And that trend went cross cultural and spread to all urban areas in the 1970's. The major concern definitely was about 1000's dying, moreso than about crime imo. See below article for intro.

I stand corrected.
Would you however not agree that at present there are more grievous concerns regarding drug use than immediate fatality?

Opioid system deficiency explanation plus a good history of the dependency / addiction problem here -

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/164/3/277
(Treating opioid dependence review)
Scroll down to "SCIENTIFIC BASIS OF OPIOID MAINTENANCE" for the guts

Interesting reading. There's no mention of neurotoxicity as such. The focus is the reduced production of endogenous opioids and how to suppress the associated withdrawal symptoms. While the article sheds light upon the neurological mechanism of addiction it does not suggest that permanent neurological damage is a necessary consequence of heroin abuse, rather that medicinal support during the withdrawal phase is non-trivial. (Opioid replacement through other compounds such as methadone).

Opioid system in brain and alcohol - http://www.springerlink.com/content/d4k3q5pbp05kmy44/
Autopsys on dead street bums known only to drink which found high opioid levels in brain first suggested that alcoholics might truly just be addicted to their own natural opioids (heroin), that gets a production boost when they drink due to some genetic variation.

Cannabis and opioid system http://biopsychiatry.com/canopioid.htm
http://www.nature.com/tpj/journal/v6.../6500375a.html And more showing it alters opioid function in foetus as well as adult

Real complicated stuff about the genes, opioid systems in brain and how this fuels addiction is here in places if you can persevere;
http://www.wikigenes.org/e/gene/e/4988.html

Good links, but I won't be reading all of it. Especially that last one would take a while to get your head around.
Now this is something I didn't dare hope for when I requested references, thanks!

A good US doco aired lately showing how experts are really heading toward a unified theory of addiction - it seems to have the same basis within the brain almost regardless of the substance one is hooked on. And yes this applies to chocolate - food addictyion. The theory says the brain responds by changes in opioid and maybe dopamine system function. So to grossly simplify all drug dependents are basically hooked on natural heroin their body either produces or simply takes in ()in case of heroin adiction)when they use. Usually because drug use has resulted in a deficit - perhaps helped along by genes that make you not a great natural producer of human opioids.

The same effect is also seen in people who exercise a lot. They actually get addicted to it...

This is why scientists are now proposing to give the heroin substitute methadone to the amphetamine addicts, which on the face of it is illogical until you realise the brain has same underlying disorder- this in the news last week. And may also later treat alcoholics with synthetic heroin.

While a substantial part of the addictive mechanism may be identical from one drug to another, that doesn't mean that their neurological mechanism and effects are even remotely similar.
E.g. methamphetamine overloads the dopamine system causing irreparable damage...

[candor]

I stand corrected.
Would you however not agree that at present there are more grievous concerns regarding drug use than immediate fatality?
the article... does not suggest that permanent neurological damage is a necessary consequence of heroin abuse.

While a substantial part of the addictive mechanism may be identical from one drug to another, that doesn't mean that their neurological mechanism and effects are even remotely similar.
E.g. methamphetamine overloads the dopamine system causing irreparable damage...

Yes I'd agree other social impacts have steamed ahead but that depends on context. I used the word neurotoxic loosely in the sense of harming brain function and altering anatomy (neurotransmitter production) - not to mean cell destruction so stand corrected.

The article may not suggest the functional damage in neurotransmission from heroin is permanent, but much anecdotal evidence from reliable recovered functional & educated addicts (taking methadone) self reports re their repeated past dogged attempts to go drug free entailing years of martyrlike suffering (depression ruled out) has me buying their conclusion about those individuals permanently disrupted brain function (when in unmedicated state). And their speculation this may be the case for many, and a good explanation for the high relapse rate of heroin (also methadone) users who try to stop.

Agreed that the neurological mechanism and effects may not be similar for all drugs. The research is at baby stage and given there are hundreds of neurotransmitters with extremely complex interactions the puzzle isn't likely to get definitive answers soon. Still the similarity offindings fordifferent drugs is interesting. When I studied psychopharmacology I was annoyed to learn we only as yet have researched and understand about 1% or something of what goes on. It's the most complicated functioning electrical organ.

There is actually research to show that the damage from dopamine overflow with meth can be repaired. You just might need more than a lifetime to see the repair. Everyones different. 2 people can use the same way the same time and one is OK within a few mths, while another still feels icky after years.

[Mikkel]

The article may not suggest the functional damage in neurotransmission from heroin is permanent, but much anecdotal evidence from reliable recovered functional & educated addicts (taking methadone) self reports re their repeated past dogged attempts to go drug free entailing years of martyrlike suffering (depression ruled out) has me buying their conclusion about those individuals permanently disrupted brain function (when in unmedicated state). And their speculation this may be the case for many, and a good explanation for the high relapse rate of heroin (also methadone) users who try to stop.

While I have no doubt that prolonged use of heroin will indeed leave significant changes to the user, I just find it important to establish what is attributable to the drug itself and what is caused by secondary effects (e.g. infections from dirty syringes) that goes along with the typical addictive behaviour.

The pure psychological impact from experiencing the extreme highs and lows of heroin addiction is more than likely to set it's mark on your personality. Just like some soldiers experiencing atrocities during war have significant psychological issues regarding settling into normal life when off-duty.

Agreed that the neurological mechanism and effects may not be similar for all drugs. The research is at baby stage and given there are hundreds of neurotransmitters with extremely complex interactions the puzzle isn't likely to get definitive answers soon. Still the similarity offindings fordifferent drugs is interesting. When I studied psychopharmacology I was annoyed to learn we only as yet have researched and understand about 1% or something of what goes on. It's the most complicated functioning electrical organ.

There is actually research to show that the damage from dopamine overflow with meth can be repaired. You just might need more than a lifetime to see the repair. Everyones different. 2 people can use the same way the same time and one is OK within a few mths, while another still feels icky after years.

I dare say that decriminalisation of drugs would make it easier to get research funding for such subjects.
In order to solve a problem you have to accept that there is a problem, then relate to it... not just forbid and ignore it.

[marioc]

Heroin is opiate based is it not?

[MisterD]

Heroin is opiate based is it not?

Google is your friend

[alley cat]

If you dance with the devil, He gets to fuck you.

Oh well lets hope hes good looking then eh