Gun Poll

**scumdog** · 21st December 2008, 16:47

Originally Posted by davereid

However, if you look at the USA state-by-state, you will find that the 21 US states with liberal gun control laws have a firearm murder rate LOWER than NZs.* The states with more restrictive laws have higher rates, and the really high rates that twist the US stats are all.. err highly controlled, and full of gangs.

ie... bad people are very implicated in crime... guns are not.

(*I'm digging up the stats to back this up.. a day or two may be required.. I have it somewhere, but I need bookmarks in my bookmarks..)

Thank you for showing that - facts like this are frequently buried by those with an anti-gun axe to grind..

**Big Dave** · 21st December 2008, 17:15

Originally Posted by scumdog

Thank you for showing that - facts like this are frequently buried by those with an anti-gun axe to grind..

Axes are weapons too - particular ground ones.

Here's my only concern.
Solid upstanding citizen gets hand gun.
No dramas.
Falls victim to glass pipe or mental illness or any other wig out and suddenly Mr Solid is pointing it at you instead of waving a cricket bat.

You know a lot better than me - tell me it doesn't happen? Is worth the risk and that systemising it won't increase the frequency.

**scumdog** · 21st December 2008, 17:20

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Axes are weapons too - particular ground ones.

Here's my only concern.
Solid upstanding citizen gets hand gun.
No dramas.
Falls victim to glass pipe or mental illness or any other wig out and suddenly Mr Solid is pointing it at you instead of waving a cricket bat.

You know a lot better than me - tell me it doesn't happen? Is worth the risk and that systemising it won't increase the frequency.

Nah, NZ is pretty balanced when it comes to gun laws - Aussie could learn a lot from it!!!

But seriously, it IS a fair system here, make the laws tougher and the balance of ownership will swing towards the crims...

**jrandom** · 21st December 2008, 17:27

Originally Posted by short-circuit

I'm not sure they need "fixed".

That could be because you're unaware of the issues. I'm guessing you didn't follow Greg Carvell's case last year?

Greg, a gun shop owner in Penrose, shot (once) a machete-wielding robber looking for firearms, stopping him. Robber came out OK in the end, but obviously wasn't able to proceed with his plan at the time. Robber got put away for several years.

Greg wasn't charged in relation to the shooting; it was obviously justified.

He was, however, charged with "possessing a firearm without lawful, proper or sufficient purpose", because he had one handy enough to load and fire in good enough time to stop an armed robber, instead of having everything locked away.

So... the law says that the shooting was justified, but the facilitation of it by appropriate storage of a weapon was not.

A paradox that nearly destroyed Mr Carvell's life and livelihood as he waited for months and months for a result.

Fortunately, he was acquitted.

But it would be good to spare other gun shop owners (and other law-abiding citizens in similar situations) from such ludicrous inconvenience.

Originally Posted by short-circuit

What is it you can't you do now and you feel you should be able to?

Well, when we say 'can't', obviously that's 'can't, without breaking any laws'. So...

I can't keep a firearm at home in a condition and location that makes it useful for defence against armed intruders.

I can't carry a set of brass knuckles if I have to spend time in an area where I know I'd be likely to be attacked by pissed darkies looking for trouble.

My partner, all 50kg of her, can't carry a can of capsaicin spray to use if she's mugged or otherwise accosted by a male twice her size.

Catch my drift?

I want all of the above to be legal.

**Indiana_Jones** · 21st December 2008, 19:21

Originally Posted by short-circuit

Are you old enough to be on the internet by yourself?

daddy?!

-Indy

**Big Dave** · 21st December 2008, 19:29

Originally Posted by Indiana_Jones

daddy?!

-Indy

Who's your daddy?

**Skyryder** · 21st December 2008, 21:10

Well I see the poll has swung back in favour of the no's

Any one running a book on this.

Skyryder

**Brett** · 21st December 2008, 22:25

Originally Posted by portokiwi

Carver...... Carver.... Carver, Why do you talk such crap. You dont know half of the people here and I am sure that if you were the target they would improve their aim

just to have you for practice

If there is one thing I am sure of...as good as carver is at shooting off with the mouth...he is probably equally good with a firearm, if not better...just assuming here though...

**AD345** · 21st December 2008, 22:47

Originally Posted by davereid

Heres the only page where the USA looks worse than us..

Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by countryRank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
#2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
#3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
#4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
#5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
#6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
#7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
#9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
#10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
#11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
#12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
#13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
#14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
#15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
#16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
#17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
#18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
#19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
#20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
#21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
#22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
#23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
#24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
#25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
#26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
#27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
#28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
#29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
#30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
#31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
#32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people

However, if you look at the USA state-by-state, you will find that the 21 US states with liberal gun control laws have a firearm murder rate LOWER than NZs.* The states with more restrictive laws have higher rates, and the really high rates that twist the US stats are all.. err highly controlled, and full of gangs.

ie... bad people are very implicated in crime... guns are not.

(*I'm digging up the stats to back this up.. a day or two may be required.. I have it somewhere, but I need bookmarks in my bookmarks..)

How about instead of murders you just do death by firearms?

hmm?

**Shadows** · 21st December 2008, 22:57

Originally Posted by scumdog

You, Dagor and shadows have obviously not had to hump around an ungainly lump of firearm while doing day to day chores and living....or you would not be choosing THOSE weapons.

Uzi machine pistol mate. If every other bugger was going to be walking around with handguns then that would be my choice.

I've bush bashed enough miles with my fully wooded .303 Longbranch to know I certainly wouldn't want to be carrying a rifle around everywhere I went.

**Shadows** · 21st December 2008, 23:14

Originally Posted by jrandom

Your basic argument there is the same one used by people who don't want motorcyclists to get advanced rider training because it makes them 'over-confident'.

Your point being?

Same basic argument for two completely different scenarios. That doesn't mean if it is right for the one it is automatically right for the other. I wasn't talking about riding fucking motorcycles.

**davereid** · 22nd December 2008, 08:35

NZ Murder Rate from 1996 to 2006:
Lowest year 2.4 per 100,000
Highest 4.0 per 100,000
(Rate varies as a small increase or decrease in the actual number of murders is reflected as a high per/100,000 rate due to small sample size)

US States which have a similar murder rate to NZ per capita.

State Murder Rate Permit required to purchase a gun ?
N.H. 1 No
S.D. 1.2 No
N.D. 1.3 No
Hawaii 1.6 Yes
Maine 1.7 No
Wyo. 1.7 No
Iowa 1.8 Yes
Mont. 1.8 No
Utah 1.8 No
Vt. 1.9 No
Ore. 2.3 No
Minn. 2.4 Yes
Idaho 2.5 No
R.I. 2.6 No
Nebr. 2.8 Yes
Mass. 2.9 Yes
Wash. 3 No
Wis. 3 No
Conn. 3.1 Yes
Colo. 3.3 No
Ky. 4 No

In all of the above states it is legal to carry an unconcealed weapon without a permit.
In all of the above states it is legal to carry a concealed weapon without a permit, or
a permit is readily available to persons without a criminal record.

Sources :
NZ Murder rates from Sensible Sentencing Trust
US Murder Rates from Infoplease.com
US Gunlaws from state-by-state googling

Oops.. chart is state.. murder rate .. permit required to purchase a gun.. the formatting falls over on KB

**Big Dave** · 22nd December 2008, 10:18

Originally Posted by scumdog

Nah, NZ is pretty balanced

Sorry my bad - I should have asked 'What's the frequency, Keneth?'

dailydave21 · 22nd December 2008, 15:36

You should check out the gun poll site here too. http://www.thegunpoll.com

This site has 5 questions about whether you have guns and when you're done you can group and sort all of the results in a really cool way. definately worth cehcking out

**AD345** · 22nd December 2008, 17:44

Originally Posted by AD345

How about instead of murders you just do death by firearms?

hmm?

I don't normally quote myself but I was interested to know the answer.

In 2004/2005 (last set of available comparable figures) the rate of death by firearm per 100,000 was:

United States - 10.25

New Zealand - 1.97

(Sources: Center for Disease Control.
AN ANALYSIS OF TRENDS IN FIREARM CASUALTIES IN
NEW ZEALAND
Chaz Forsyth and Clayton Weatherston)

Guns are NOT a crime or public safety issue

Guns are a lethality issue

They actually do kill people