What do you make of this cornering advice?

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

The less you know a road, the greater the imperative to give yourself the best sight-lines etc. Stay wide. And it should not matter what speed you are doing...slower = same line = less lean angle. You still get to see the turkey in the WRX/SUV on your side in time to avoid him.

while I agree with what you are saying (to a degree and in principle)... staying wide on the white line is just as bad... I have had many close encounters of cages that have cut the corner that are just coming back on there side of that invisible useless force field of a line which is cutting through my line... if I was a second earlier I would still be the hood ornament. It does depend on the corner... (and 1 case I did boot the door as it went past on my side of the road)

I prefer a more central approach which gives me room to move either way. I still get to see around the corner, and have time to react and choose a new line due to crap on the road on the edge and the cage cutting the corner... as well as the sheep that came from know where,... happens alot in the Catlins

If you are going a little quick(er) and you drop in early, you will not see what's coming in time to react, plus you will likely get slingshotted wide on corner exit...just in time to become a hood ornamet.

Every situation on the open road is different... even on the same corner you have done a 1000 times before.

It also depends on the road and type of riding you are doing... mix of wide open sweepers or the narrow road and tight twisties and the road is known for crap on the road (yes ride to the conditions and ride your own ride etc...) with many blind corners and you have less room for movement...

[Fatjim]

I'd cut it, run to the outside, bang it over and juice it out.


Then I'd wake up.

[MSTRS:Me]

... staying wide on the white line is just as bad...

Just on the approach and entry...somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 way through the corner is apex time and cut towards the inside. On most corners, this will have allowed you to see the exit, know it's clear (or not) and accelerate out (or pull tighter if necessary). It also reduces that slingshot effect that can be so deadly.

[scracha]

Bwhhaha...."driving is in the blood"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7816511.stm

The parents of a six-year-old boy in the US have been charged with neglect after the boy drove their car for 10km in an attempt to get to school on time.

Police in Virginia said the boy, who was not named, took the keys to the car after he missed the school bus.

He drove for six miles (10km) on major roads, weaving through traffic and overtaking slower cars, before losing control and going off the road.

The boy told police he learned to drive by playing video games.

Protective custody

Police said the boy was so intent on getting to school after failing to make the bus, that he got the keys to his father's Ford Taurus and took the wheel himself.

"When he got out of the car, he started walking to school. He did not want to miss breakfast and PE," said Northumberland County Sheriff Chuck Wilkins.

His road trip came to an end only after he ran off the road several times before hitting an embankment and utility pole. He was not, police said, wearing a seat belt.

He was treated for minor injuries at a hospital before police took him to school.

It happened at 0740 on Monday, while the boy's mother was still asleep.

Both of his parents have been charged with endangering their child. He and his four-year-old brother are now in protective custody.

[gixxer-king]

nice one. but on the up side one less ford to worry about.







let the bitch fight begin

[Anarkist]

Bahaha! I have the same exact rant about that TV ad.

It's not ESC that saves you from that type of crash, it's not driving like a drunk chimp that does.

[bikemike]

Quick look at the scan of that ad I'd say that's about speed, not lines or position. At the likely speed of approach, the biker would, across the clear corner, see the car on it's approach and his line would be set well clear of the car - if he had scrubbed off enough speed to take the avoiding line.

The wide line is clearly wrong, and the tight line is clearly right, in so far as it kept the biker out of trouble.

Sure, you want a wide approach on a left hander and a later tip in than shown, but that's in general.
For that corner (so far as I can see it) it's clear, I'd take a very tight line right round, tighter than both shown. And, if it were blind, I'd take it tighter than a regular left hander - keeping further away from the crown (pretty much on the survival line as drawn). They key thing is that I'd take it slower than if it were clear - isn't that obvious?

The late turn in and wide line gives you a longer view and more time to react as well as plan and may let you set a smoother line. However, that position must always be sacrificed for safety...

The way I see it, we are always juggling actual and potential hazards and the wide line is chosen in part to give most time to deal with potential hazards. The thing is, the latency for that potential hazard is very low on a tight bend. Any potential hazard will become an actual hazard very quickly and the proximity at that point will make it very hard to take evasive action quickly enough. A moment's inattention or hesitation will be deadly whatever your own speed.

Also, the minute you add or carry extra speed because you think you know the road you multiply the risks you take. You have to ride to what you see. In this case, the clear corner and the car - stay tight and stay out of the way. If it were blind slow down and pull it in a bit, don't be thinking you are on the right line because you are taking the wide line and will be able to move out of the way if and when you see one coming towards you. You won't have time on the tight ones.

Happy to call it differently if I see the ad and it's not what it seems :-)

[Okey Dokey]

The way I see it, we are always juggling actual and potential hazards and the wide line is chosen in part to give most time to deal with potential hazards. The thing is, the latency for that potential hazard is very low on a tight bend. Any potential hazard will become an actual hazard very quickly and the proximity at that point will make it very hard to take evasive action quickly enough. A moment's inattention or hesitation will be deadly whatever your own speed.

Also, the minute you add or carry extra speed because you think you know the road you multiply the risks you take. You have to ride to what you see. In this case, the clear corner and the car - stay tight and stay out of the way. If it were blind slow down and pull it in a bit, don't be thinking you are on the right line because you are taking the wide line and will be able to move out of the way if and when you see one coming towards you. You won't have time on the tight ones.

Happy to call it differently if I see the ad and it's not what it seems :-)

I agree. You have expressed much more clearly my impressions of this ad.

[Gassit Girl]

You have to ride to what you see. In this case, the clear corner and the car - stay tight and stay out of the way. If it were blind slow down and pull it in a bit, don't be thinking you are on the right line because you are taking the wide line and will be able to move out of the way if and when you see one coming towards you. You won't have time on the tight ones.

:-)

Well said.

[gixxer-king]

Bahaha! I have the same exact rant about that TV ad.

It's not ESC that saves you from that type of crash, it's not driving like a drunk chimp that does.

thank you. god that ad ticks me off, lets take a look, lets take a look, lets take a look, if people looked at all they would see the flick of the wheel. God damn, at least use a ford in that clip so it's believable a car could just wildly spin out of control.

[pritch]

The late turn in and wide line gives you a longer view and more time to react as well as plan and may let you set a smoother line. However, that position must always be sacrificed for safety...

Ed Zachary. I'm a fan of the late entry, but if in doubt use a tighter line.

For some years now the Brit Police have advocated the wide entry but the bike mags say it's killing people. The Brit Police though really don't want to consider rewriting their bible. Yet!

On the left handers the late entry will give you a good view, but it may just be a close up view of the grill on a 4WD.

[riffer]

I'd cut it, run to the outside, bang it over and juice it out.


Then I'd wake up.

Interesting. I my dreams I tend to back it in right to the apex with the rear tyre just kissing the centreline.

Agree with Hitcher, MSTRS et al on this one. The recommended line doesn't give you anywhere enough vision into the corner. If I turned that quickly into a corner I'd be pulling the bike up straight halfway through. I tend to straightline it to the apex, then throw the bike to the side and turn, trying as much as possible to only have one steering input per corner. Doing it like the ad suggests looks to me like you'd have to have a constantly changing input on the bars.

[Winston001]

I tend to straightline it to the apex, then throw the bike to the side and turn, trying as much as possible to only have one steering input per corner. Doing it like the ad suggests looks to me like you'd have to have a constantly changing input on the bars.

You'd need to change the input if the corner kept changing it's radius - which a lot of corners do. In my limited experience, the only way you could corner with one input would be to know the corner well and be absolutely confident about the correct line.

But I'm still trying to understand this cornering stuff anyway.....

[riffer]

Yes, you're right to a certain extent you probably would have to change the steering input for a changing radius corner.

Twist of the Wrist and Twist of the Wrist II have some great info for you.

[bikemike]

Ed Zachary. I'm a fan of the late entry, but if in doubt use a tighter line.

For some years now the Brit Police have advocated the wide entry but the bike mags say it's killing people. The Brit Police though really don't want to consider rewriting their bible. Yet!

On the left handers the late entry will give you a good view, but it may just be a close up view of the grill on a 4WD.

Hmm, some of my training comes from that, bikesafe and all that. I think the problem is one of interpretation; by that I mean that the advice in the manual as it stands should not put you in mortal danger per se.

The blue book (mine's 1992) says:
"However, before selecting a course near the centre line, consideration must be given to the following:

(a) Offside dangers which require a greater margin of safety, e.g. approaching traffic
(b) If such positioning may be misleading to other traffic
(c) Where no advantage can be gained due to the low speeds involved or open nature of the bend"

Motorcycle Roadcraft (1996) says:
"Safety is the overriding consideration. If you can safely adopt one of the positions suggested on the next page, do so, but never sacrifice safety for position....
Left-hand bends - position yourself towards the centre line so that you get an early view round the bend. Before you adopt this position consider:
- approaching traffic and other offside dangers which require a greater margin of safety
- whether your position might mislead other traffic as to your intentions
- whether any advantage would be gained at low speed or on an open bend (one with unrestricted views across the bend)"

I have not read the new blue-ish book yet, but the 2007 edition (mine's 2008) says:
"Position yourself so that you are least likely to come into conflict with other road users: for example, look out for pedestrians to your nearside and concoming traffic to your offside. Never sacrifice safety for position"....
Left-hand bends - position yourself towards the centre line so that you get an early view round the bend. Before you take this position consider:
- approaching traffic or other offside dangers which need a greater margin or safety
- whether your position might mislead other traffic as to your intentions
- whether or not you will gain any advantage at low speed or on an open bend"

So, though they have rewritten it, not really much change on this topic except more or less spoon-feeding and a token (albeit inconsistent) nod in the direction of pedestrians.

The one thing I have noticed in glancing through the latest book though is the change to the way the old Information / Position / Speed / Gear / Accelerate system is presented. There's a change to show visually that the Information phase encompasses all the others. This should have been obvious before, and the texts made it clear, and any instruction based on the text should have done the same. Still, it should help people get over the false 'it's inflexible' response. Also, they have grouped Position Speed and Gear visually, and left Acceleration out there almost as an option...

Anyway, I'll need to read it some more.

I still think the subliminal message in the ad is more about speed than position. It gets us to look at the line and remind ourselves to slow down so we can get round - that's all.