Gaza

[James Deuce]

Yes, how dare this person interrupt a tennis match because hundreds of women and children are being killed and injured? They do not share the most common NZ religion and their skin is not pig pink, so who gives a toss? Let's get on with important things like tennis, cricket, etc. and forget about insignificant nonsense like nazi genocide going on somewhere else in the world...

We must always remember that it's OK to kill Jews.

[Maki]

Your easily led by spin alright, just not my spin. (If you want to know who's spin is leading you, then find out for yourself who has more control and ownership of the western media, Palestinians or Iraelies.)
You can spin it all you like but I tend to take sides with the weak against the strong, always have and always will.

There was a time, not so long ago when civilians of many occupied countries gathered together and fought nazi invaders. Militants, "conveniently dress as civillians" murdered a certain Heydrich. As punishment "a village in the Czech Republic just north-west of Prague which, as part of Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, was completely destroyed by the Germans in reprisal for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich during World War II. On June 10, 1942, all 192 men over 16 years of age from the village were murdered on the spot by the Germans in a much publicized atrocity. The rest of the population were sent to Nazi concentration camps where many women and nearly all the children were killed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

And this is genocide isn't it? I take it that Germany had decided to exterminate all people in Lidice without any provocation?

How soon we forget, and how cold are our hearts....

[MacD]

We must always remember that it's OK to kill Jews.

The current exchange rate appears to be about 70 Palestinians to the Israeli.

[slofox]

Some Middle Eastern Country's have hated each other for hundreds of years,

Yep - but I think it's actually thousands of years Maha...best we build a huge wall around 'em all and leave 'em be...I wonder how much interest there would be in that particular conflict if the Middle East had no oil...

[Dak]

I reckon we should get Team America to go into Gaza and destroy all the WOMD's, that'll fix em. Team America, F%^K Yea!

[Maki]

Indeed. Because what the fuck has this poor girl done HERSELF PERSONALLY to deserve any type of fucking protest?

And how could you possibly call what is happening over there anything like 'nazi genocide'?

If you had you family rapped up warm and safe at home, and I started shooting arrows through your windows with a crossbow...and you owned an m16....you'd eventually use it.

Given the state of what passes for a free media I understand your perspective. Given the realities on the ground I don't agree with it. The resistance movement in WW2 surely killed and harrased some Germans. I do however believe that the German response was often brutal and disproportionate, for example in the case of the Heydrich murder that I mentioned earlier in this thread.

It seems that many feel that the Germans had every right to do what they did, and the Isralies have every right to kill 70 for every one of theirs. I just don't share the sentiment.

Consider this question, what led to the rise of Hamas and the popular vote for Hamas? Does anyone remember the PLO? Does anyone remember how Israel basicly eradicated them? What did they think they would get instead? Something more moderate?

Finally I would like to point out this item from an Israely newspaper, Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050459.html

"Once again, Israel's violent responses, even if there is justification for them, exceed all proportion and cross every red line of humaneness, morality, international law and wisdom."

[paturoa]

There is no win here. We are simply looking at variations of this over time. It will be just how many are being killed where and when. I suspect that the body count currently heavily favours the Is more then the Ps over the last 10 years or so - who knows. This may change over the next hundred years - who knows again?

Minto and his buddies are taking a micro lens focus to a much larger issue and pissing into the wind. Unfortunately the current piss is spraying onto more innocents.

What exactly is he trying to achieve?

I listened to an interview on the radio today, and the apparent issue that is at the core is the opression etc of the I's against the Ps. There is a lot of valid stuff there, others argue that it is unbalanced surviuval????

I thought that:
- siince the UN set up the 2 states after WWII, at the end of the British rule, that there were multiple displaced people.
- that there has been several wars with the aim of eliminating the I State.
- that radical Ps (and others) stated aim is to eliminate the I State
- that radical Is (and others) stated aim is to keep the I State at all costs.

So, lets imagine that the I's will stop "retailating", and continue to get out of the occupied areas (as they have been for the last few years). Will the a'hole Ps stop trying to kill the I's and eliminate I?

A badly thought through micro protest.

[Maki]

Sorry I could not go past this comment. At risk of taking this thread way off the topic of what a complete waste of space Minto is....

WHAT????????

"Seems" was the word I used. Germany occupied European countries and used disproportionate force against the resistance movements. Israel occupied Palestine and uses disproportionate force against the resistance movement.

If you can condone one, how can you not condone the other? It "seems" to me, Mom that if you approve of brutal disproportionate violence in one country you inevitably do so in another, unless you happen to be a bigot.

[James Deuce]

The current exchange rate appears to be about 70 Palestinians to the Israeli.

There is no exchange rate.

One person dying violently to further the ends of any State or State sanctioned group is one too many. Just 'cos I don't like it doesn't mean people will stop doing it though, because people tend to the Path of Suck, rather than the Road of Truly Excellent Behaviour to one another.

Human nature being what it is though breaks war into stats. Quality has a certain quantity when you're chucking munitions.

It's a bit of a "meh" really though, isn't it? One person's furious tirade against wrongs of the world via an Internet site adds up to exactly nothing.

John Minto's protest is meaningless as well.

Some of you folks need to read some history though. It's arguable that both the current Middle Eastern calamity and the Holocaust can be laid at Winston Churchill and Josef Stalin's feet. No one gives a shit about the historical background though, because most people simply don't care about History, either personal or global.

Always remember when discussing this subject: There has never been a "State" called Palestine. Israel was closed for business by the Roman Empire by the simple expedient of borrowing their best and brightest to run the Roman Empire. Winston Churchill screwed up a brilliant solution to the creation of a modern state of Israel, an inclusive Republic rather than an exclusive Democratic "religious" state.

[MisterD]

Israel occupied Palestine and uses disproportionate force against the resistance movement.

Israelies bought most of the land that comprises their state at market prices from absentee Arab landlords - most of the rest they won, fair and square from the Arab countries that attacked them with the express intention of pushing them into the Med.

Did you know that the IDF are actually telephoning the neghbours of target buildings to warn them? Perhaps they should be more proportionate and just lob 20 rockets a day into random residential areas?

John Minto is a twat alright, as it appears are the bulk of the media that buy the anti-semitic line.

[Maki]

Nice try, James, however....

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/balfour.htm

Which is indisputably the beginning of this Middle East calamity.

"During the First World War, British policy gravitated towards the creation of a Jewish home in Palestine. This was encouraged, in part, by a wish to motivate Jews in Russia towards the continuation of the Russian war effort, at that time endangered by engulfing revolution: in essence, that an Allied victory (which was taken to include Russia) would lead to the establishment of a Jewish state. Similarly, it was thought that the declaration would engage the sympathy of American Jews."

The Balfour declaration:

" His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

There are many lessons to be learned from this, and many conclusions that can be drawn....

[Swoop]

Israel has built a large wall around parts of the country to prevent terrorists from entering the country at will. This wall has been very effective. Note the lack of not-very-smart-bombs walking into nightclubs and marketplaces and detonating themselves.
Hamas is happy to lob mortar rounds and unguided missiles over the wall to indescrminately kill whoever is around.
I posted some time ago, about the use of Phalanx systems like our Navy uses, to track and shoot down bombs and missiles that were being sent over the wall.
It appears that Israel has worked hard to keep people safe in that part of the world.

Here are some other bits of info for you to peruse. You will not find this on tvnz or TV3.

January 6, 2009: The Israeli economy grew by 4.1 percent in 2008. The Palestinian economy in Gaza didn't. Hamas blames Israel for the economic collapse in Gaza, because a blockade intended to keep out weapons, for use against Israel, also keeps out other goods. Israel applies economic pressure in much the same way Hamas does (by crippling economic growth in southern Israel with rocket attacks.) But Hamas and Israel have different priorities. For Israel it's survival and growth. For Hamas it's the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a worldwide Islamic religious dictatorship. From a distance, it's easy to ignore the goals of Hamas, but the closer you get, the uglier, and more lethal, Hamas becomes. For example, Egypt has remained very hostile to Hamas, and any ceasefire that does not curb the organizations violent behavior. A recent poll of Israelis shows 95 percent of Jewish citizens support the operations against Hamas. Those are numbers no politician in a democracy can ignore.

The Israeli Air Force has been launching about 90 attacks a day on targets in Gaza. Smart bombs and guided missiles have been used extensively. For the last two years, the Israeli Army has been developing new tactics and equipment for fighting Hamas and Hezbollah type gunmen in urban areas. The Israelis have built training areas, with dense urban construction, and run many of its ground troops through special exercises. How well the new tactics and training are will be seen in the next week or so. The new tactics are meant to minimize civilian casualties, while enabling Israeli troops to quickly move through the area and kill or capture enemy personnel and equipment. Reservist units being called up, that have not gone through the special training, are being sent to the new training centers for at least a few days of instruction on the new tactics. These new methods, while officially secret, apparently involve some new fighting tactics, and lots of electronic warfare. Hamas has had to operate with both cell phones and landline communications down. In addition, their walkie-talkies are sometimes jammed, and apparently listened to carefully by Israeli electronic warfare troops. This is causing command and coordination problems for Hamas fighters.

In the north, the military has warned civilians that Hezbollah may begin firing rockets if Hamas looks like it is taking too much damage (that is, being defeated in the court of public opinion.) So far, about 550 Palestinians have died, and seven Israelis (including three soldiers killed in a friendly fire incident).

Hamas cannot win when fighting Israel, and is determined to win an Information War. That means getting the maximum number of Palestinian civilians killed or wounded and getting images of that onto TV worldwide. While Israel is keeping reporters out of the combat zone (since December 29th), Hamas is not, and reporters from Moslem nations are eager to tell the story as Hamas wants it told (you get expelled from the area, or worse, if you don't, but that's a story that won't get reported until long after this is all over.) Getting enough diplomatic pressure on Israel to force a ceasefire allows Hamas to re-arm and increase its attacks on Israel. You only have to look at the Arab language message coming from Hamas through all this. The destruction of Israel and extermination of the Jews is what Hamas is all about. They make no secret of it, but do play it down in their non-Arabic press releases. That's because Hamas knows that, by playing the victim, they get more sympathy (and threats of sanctions against Israel) from the West, and mode aid (cash, volunteers) from the Islamic world. Hamas believes last year was a victory for them, as terrorist attacks killed 36 Israelis in 2008, up from 13 in 2007. Most of these attacks were not the work, directly, of Hamas, but rather West Bank based terrorists or Israeli Arabs caught up in the "destroy Israel" movement. Although most Israeli Arabs are better off than Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East, many still back calls for the destruction of Israel, because it's (for most Arabs) the right thing to do.

Calls for a ceasefire are going unanswered because Hamas and Israel cannot agree on the terms. Israel wants an end to the smuggling from Egypt and an international police force ensuring that no more rockets or mortar shells are fired into southern Israel. Hamas will not accept this, and is urging that Israel stop bombing targets in Gaza, and get its troops out of Gaza. In return, Hamas offers a ceasefire like the one that ended in December (fewer rockets fired into southern Israel, but no restrictions on the smuggling from Egypt). Arab diplomats are demanding acceptance of the Hamas rules, while European diplomats are urging Israel to "be reasonable".

January 4, 2009: Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek, who just rotated into the presidency of the European Union, has made himself very unpopular in Western Europe by pointing out that Israel is simply defending itself. There's a big split between East and West Europe when it comes to terrorism and dealing with totalitarian governments (like Hamas). East Europe has half a century of recent history living under the rule of tyrants (Nazis and communists) who knew how to spin the media. While Western Europeans have read books like "1984", East Europeans lived it, and they have not forgotten. They will eventually, but they have only been free since 1989. Given another decade or so, and their memories of their despotic rulers will soften, as will their attitude towards modern day tyrants-with-good-publicists. Outfits like Hamas not only learned much from the Nazis and communists, but actually admire these two groups. Arabs were very pro-Nazi during World War II, and Hamas ally Hezbollah, up in Lebanon, has adopted the infamous Nazi straight arm salute as their own.

Hamas managed to fire about 30 rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel. This activity is expected to decline even more as Israeli troops physically occupy the areas in northern Gaza from which most of the rockets are launched. Even now, Hamas has taken to launching the rockets from backyards in Gaza City. Palestinian civilians are fleeing the fighting, knowing well the Hamas preference for using civilians as human shields.

January 3, 2009: After nightfall, Israeli ground troops entered Gaza, quickly cutting the top third of the 41 kilometer long Gaza Strip off from the rest. This area has about 440,000 people, most of them crammed into Gaza City. The advance was preceded by the first use of artillery against Gaza in two years.

In eight days of operations, 430 Palestinians and four Israelis have been killed. Hamas has not been as successful as it hoped in using civilians as human shields, and running up the civilian death toll. Lots of dead civilians are essential to Hamas success (it getting enough Western countries threatening Israel and forcing a ceasefire). Fighting on the ground will cause more Israeli military personnel, but will make it more difficult for Hamas to get Palestinian civilians killed.

January 1, 2009: Hamas managed to fire about 70 rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel. Israeli aircraft hit 25 targets in Gaza, including a mosque that was being used for storing weapons and launching rockets. Israel believes that 57 percent of the 390 Palestinians killed in Gaza so far were Hamas personnel, 11 percent were civilians, and, for the remainder, it was unclear.

December 31, 2008: Hamas has fired about 60 rockets and mortar shells a day into southern Israel since the Israeli bombing began on the 27th. These attacks have killed four Israelis and wounded several dozen.

Also, minto is a complete cunt.

[pritch]

Minto may very well be a fuckwit, I don't know, and frankly I don't care. There are more important things...

Like anti- semetism?

[enigma51]

I laughed last night when the un condemd israels actions then follow it up with a request for 3 hour stand down. Israel and hamash comply. 20 minutes after the 3 hours who throws the first bomb? Hamash...... ..... now who started it again?

[Maki]

I am pro semite, regardless of their religion, Jewish or Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

This is the kind of thing I am against:

"The International Committee of the Red Cross says it has found four small children alive next to their mothers' bodies in a Gaza home hit by Israeli shelling.

The aid group says a total of 15 dead were recovered from two houses in the Zaytun neighborhood of Gaza City on Wednesday.

Red Cross spokesman Pierre Wettach said Thursday rescuers had been refused permission by Israeli forces to reach the site for four days. He described the incident as "shocking."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2...2757%2C00.html

And that my friend is just a small drop in an ocean of crime.