Gaza

**Wally Simmonds** · 16th January 2009, 09:07

Originally Posted by Winston001

Good posts above Wally, just have to argue a bit.

North Vietnam won the war, Tibet - China won and is overwhelming the locals with Han immigration, the Balkans - only quietened down when the Americans got fed up with European dithering and acted, Falklands - Britain won, South Africa - ANC won, Georgia - Transnistria - Russia won, etc etc.

Violence can be preventative. There is a difference between aggression and defence. The Mongrel Mob commit violent crime, the Police need to use batons, tear gas, and pistols to stop and apprehend the criminals.

Should the Allies have stood back when Hitler controlled the whole of Europe and asked him to please stop and go home?

There is an excellent earlier post along the lines that if someone kept firing arrows into your house and you had an M16, is it any surprise that you eventually use it?

Of course that's acceptable, but I don't think it's applicable in this case as it's not a case of 'eventually' but more 'every fucking time'. The option of violence in the area is often first resort (this isn't just applicable to the Israelis either, I could name a couple of other nation-states that seem a bit too quick on the trigger when irked)

My point is that there seems to be mindset of 'my sides better than yours, so I'm right' which isn't ever going to resolve anything. I don't really see this being addressed by either side although I'd hope that more educated minds could see the futility of bombing the crap out of Gaza for the hundredth time as it's not going to do anything but create the next generation of dumbarses wanting to push Israel into the sea.

These guys are quite happy to give their lives away not only because of religion but because they've little to lose and at least they'll go down sticking to what they percieve 'the man' to be. My stance would be trying to invest a little less in the military and a little more on giving the Pals a reason not to give their lives away so easily. If the region was actually allowed to prosper with some economic assistance from Arab states (which could be funnelled from the West, if necessary) organisations like Hamas might find it a bit harder to find recruits.

Sure, I don't think that the various organisations in Gaza happy with the Status quo are going to sit by and idly watch this happen but that's where you use your intelligence agencies to your full advantage to sway individuals around to your way of thinking.

As for stopping Iran funding these guys - honestly, let's change scenarios. Let's say the Chinese invaded Mexico and had enclaves sitting down in Panama and were had allies hostile to the US in Latin American countries. Would you expect the States to sit on their hands?

**Winston001** · 16th January 2009, 09:56

Originally Posted by Wally Simmonds

As for stopping Iran funding these guys - honestly, let's change scenarios. Let's say the Chinese invaded Mexico and had enclaves sitting down in Panama and were had allies hostile to the US in Latin American countries. Would you expect the States to sit on their hands?

JFK. Cuban Missile Crisis 1961.

**Oscar** · 16th January 2009, 10:05

Originally Posted by Wally Simmonds

As for stopping Iran funding these guys - honestly, let's change scenarios. Let's say the Chinese invaded Mexico and had enclaves sitting down in Panama and were had allies hostile to the US in Latin American countries. Would you expect the States to sit on their hands?

Munroe Doctrine.

**Winston001** · 16th January 2009, 10:05

Ok. My longterm hope to overcome political and religious oppression is the internet. That might sound ludicrous but never before have ideas and information been able to circulate the world so swiftly. China tries to block it but plenty of young Chinese get around the blocks.

Education and hope are what is needed for billions of semi-literate poor people all over the world. The Pals have no hope at the moment which drives them to extreme behaviour.

The really big problem globally though is burgening population growth and dwindling resources. The hope of attaining our First World lifestyle, for the 75% currently missing out simply isn't possible.

To that extent the problem is insoluble until the world's population drops back to about 2 billion.

**Swoop** · 16th January 2009, 11:39

Originally Posted by Winston001

Israel has its own arms industry...

I posted this link in another thread.
Some kids have nice toys.

Originally Posted by Wally Simmonds

The option of violence in the area is often first resort (this isn't just applicable to the Israelis either,...

You believe that Israel was "quick on the trigger" to get into Gaza then??

**Wally Simmonds** · 16th January 2009, 12:35

They've been planning this invasion for months, same as Hamas have been planning for it as well.

Both parties are quick to jump to violence - it doesn't work. We'll be back here in a few years discussing the same shit.

**Swoop** · 16th January 2009, 12:56

Originally Posted by Wally Simmonds

They've been planning this invasion for months,

Both parties are quick to jump to violence

So you discount the years of having to put up with hamas terrorist's firing bombs and missiles into Israel?
This was a "spur of the moment" attack?

**Oscar** · 16th January 2009, 13:36

Originally Posted by Swoop

So you discount the years of having to put up with hamas terrorist's firing bombs and missiles into Israel?
This was a "spur of the moment" attack?

So the Israelis have done absolutely nothing to provoke this?

No walls.
No settlement.
No checkpoints.
No detention without trial.

Nothing?

**Winston001** · 16th January 2009, 13:40

Originally Posted by Wally Simmonds

They've been planning this invasion for months, same as Hamas have been planning for it as well.

Both parties are quick to jump to violence - it doesn't work. We'll be back here in a few years discussing the same shit.

Maybe I'm wrong but I've never perceived Israel as quick to jump to violence. Its always seemed that they put up with Hizbollah lobbing bombs out of Lebanon or Hamas doing the same from Gaza until eventually it gets too much. Every few years the Israelis loose patience and push back.

If this wasn't true then they wouldn't waste time and money building the wall - they'd have attacked Gaza 3 years ago.

**Wally Simmonds** · 16th January 2009, 14:15

Yes, but what caused them to lob bombs/rockets over? The general consensus of the Western media is that it's Hamas' doctrine to 'push Israel into the sea' without really delving into it further. People buy into it because it doesn't require them to think about the situation. And it's much easier to blame Isreal who are at least partially at fault than Hamas if you're a Palastinian.

Contrary to popular belief, people just don't turn into terrorists. I know after a few decades of blockade and seeing my old man getting roughed up by Israeli paramilitary groups I would be pretty tempted to have a go, eh.

Fortunately, I've got a western education and realise that that sort of behaviour is only going to get me killed.

**vifferman** · 16th January 2009, 14:28

I can't help but feel that the lack of agreement on this thread is somehow illustrative when you consider the Israel vs. Plaestine thing.

**Winston001** · 16th January 2009, 14:35

Originally Posted by vifferman

I can't help but feel that the lack of agreement on this thread is somehow illustrative when you consider the Israel vs. Palestine thing.

Yeah but we're exchanging ideas and learning bits here and there. For example Street Gerbil's explanation about Fatah and corruption which is why Hamas looked more attractive.

And we'd get the same disagreement in a Protestant v Catholic argument, OZ v NZ, Crusaders v Blues etc etc. However people can be persuaded to change their point of view or at least rethink when ideas are discussed.