Gaza

[Pixie]

hea .. been thinkin bout heading down to the Green Party HQ in Kingsland with a bad attitude and a duffle bag fulla shoes myself .. ..


filthy hippies...

Giving shoes to hippies won't do any good - they don't wear them.

You could shove them up their arses though.

[slowpoke]

look.. heres the way i see it ...



Hamas is launching rockets into Israel.. have been for a while now..they are also hiding amongst civilian populations and using schools, hospitals and mosques as shelter


this is the same tactic that Al queda, Hezbollah, etc have been using forever..

then when they start getting fire.. the liberal media starts lapping it up and calling the ones cranking rounds downrange "war criminals" (ratings!!!)

fact is .. if the civilian populace would turn thier backs on the insurgents and start pointing fingers in the direction of the insurgents and clearing out long enough to sweep aand clear then the fighting would be over quickly

i have no respect for a supposed "soldier" who rely's on human shields..then cries when they get blown to shit..


cowards


far as im concerned.. Israel should hit them harder and make sure the fight aint worth it for the enemy

OK Sarge, say we wake up tomorrow morning and find that, I dunno, say Indonesia, have invaded and overrun NZ.
Are you just gonna roll over and make peace, and start waving the Indonesian flag?
Are you gonna fight back?
If you do are you gonna form nice orderly groups of uniformed men/women for the invaders to easily mop up? Army intelligence may be an oxy moron but even they wouldn't be that stupid

But lets get one thing straight:

Israel have illegally occupied Gaza and under international law an occupied peole have the right to use arms against their occupiers.

Another thing, this is not a war and certainly not a war of opposing armies. This is one of the poorest and opressed civilian populations on earth resisting the fourth largest military power in the world.

Israel have done everything within their power to destroy any and all Palestinian leadership be it democratically elected or not, creating a truncated, powerless, violent society ruled by militias, gangs, ethnic and religious extremists. The resulting carnage justifies their actions and enables their ultimate aim of destryoing any hope of a separate Palestinian state.

[Jantar]

...Israel have illegally occupied Gaza and under international law an occupied peole have the right to use arms against their occupiers......

Wrong. According to http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ttlements.html

Jews were present in Gaza until 1929, when they were forced to leave the area due to violent riots against them by the Arabs. Following these riots, and the death of nearly 135 Jews in all, the British prohibited Jews from living in Gaza to quell tension and appease the Arabs.

Israel retook Gaza during the 1967 six days war, when Israel was attacked by a number of arab states. It was the Arabs who were the agressors, not the Israelites.

But you still haven't explained what all this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

[Winston001]

OK Sarge, say we wake up tomorrow morning and find that, I dunno, say Indonesia, have invaded and overrun NZ.
Are you just gonna roll over and make peace, and start waving the Indonesian flag?
Are you gonna fight back?
If you do are you gonna form nice orderly groups of uniformed men/women for the invaders to easily mop up? Army intelligence may be an oxy moron but even they wouldn't be that stupid

Of course we'd fight back. But the only invasion of Israel and the Palestinian Territories has been by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. They were fought off and they lost.

A better comparison would be an invasion of NZ by Fiji assisted by Maori separatists, to free Maori from the Europeans. Assuming we won, I don't think we'd reward Maori separatists........

.........a truncated, powerless, violent society ruled by militias, gangs, ethnic and religious extremists.....

Do you see a theme here? Sounds like Sudan, Pakistan and Iraq. And much of Africa. Indeed the Middle East conflict is minor compared to the millions of people who live in daily mortal fear in Africa.

[slowpoke]

Wrong. According to http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ttlements.html

Riiiiiiight, and the "American-Jewish Co-operative Enterprise" (I shit you not) who run that site are completely unbiased....Tui ad if ever there was one.

How's about the BBC as a more reputable source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7795139.stm
"Israeli settlements on occupied territory are seen as illegal by the rest of the world. But now an Israeli human rights group is saying that even under Israeli law, one of the most significant and well-established settlements is unlawful."

But you still haven't explained what all this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

Call me old fashioned but I'll examine the messengers message before I'll shoot him. He could call up a 'paper/tv and try to get some air time with probably no success or he can use her to put the message up in lights which has succeeded reasonably well from the sounds of it.

Of course we'd fight back. But the only invasion of Israel and the Palestinian Territories has been by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. They were fought off and they lost.

Israel launched the first strike in that war, and decided to help themselves to Gaza at the end of it. But why continue to punish the people of Gaza? Why continue to forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes, or destroy their homes so illegal Jewish settlements can be created right to this day? Why cut off humanitarian aid? Why cut off power, water and basic health services? These things are happening NOW and are unjustifiable.

A better comparison would be an invasion of NZ by Fiji assisted by Maori separatists, to free Maori from the Europeans. Assuming we won, I don't think we'd reward Maori separatists........

I don't quite follow your logic on this one. My example was just a response to Sarge's rhetoric against the tactics of the Palestinians. Apparently the horrendously outnumbered and poorly equipped Palestinians (mostly individuals and loose groups, hardly an army) are supposed to pull on uniforms and march off to duke it out face to face with rocks and mostly handweapons against the 4th largest military power in the world with it's tanks, airforce and nuclear arsenal.

Do you see a theme here? Sounds like Sudan, Pakistan and Iraq. And much of Africa. Indeed the Middle East conflict is minor compared to the millions of people who live in daily mortal fear in Africa.

Minor it may be but it still stinks. I just find it sad that most people couldn't give a toss or can't be bothered doing the most basic reasearch before arriving at a judgement. People are all to eager to make snap judgements based on something that has happened without asking the basic question of why it has happened.

[Oscar]

Oscar, you are a naughty lad trying to use Imperial Germany as a metaphor for Israel. There is simply no rational comparison. Germany both in 1914 and in 1939 was the aggressor and attacked the rest of Europe. By contrast Israel has experienced continuous attacks against its borders.

Israel as you well know has been and is defending it's very existence. While rockets and bombs continue to come out of Gaza, while the government of Gaza continues to have a stated policy of aggression against Israel, then the embargo will continue. Lay down arms, talk peacefully, and things will change.

There are quite a few parallels actually.
In 1938 Germany moved against borders mandated in 1919 by an International Agreement. Israel is doing the same thing (actually occupying land against the tenets of the agreement that allow the creation of the state).

At this point the "provocation" that it's using to launch its attack on Gaza is so far in to "chicken and egg" territory it's just not funny. Sure, Hamas is firing missiles into Israel, but is that because of the economic blockade imposed by Israel, which maybe down to the suicide bombings by Hamas, which may in turn may have been a reaction to the Israeli occupation /settlement of Palestinian lands or Jerusalem....

The only truth in this argument is that there is precious little truth to go around, and that anyone who tries to argue the rights or one side against the other is a zealot or a fool (most likely both).

[firefighter]

Oscar, you are a naughty lad trying to use Imperial Germany as a metaphor for Israel. There is simply no rational comparison. Germany both in 1914 and in 1939 was the aggressor and attacked the rest of Europe. By contrast Israel has experienced continuous attacks against its borders.

Israel as you well know has been and is defending it's very existence. While rockets and bombs continue to come out of Gaza, while the government of Gaza continues to have a stated policy of aggression against Israel, then the embargo will continue. Lay down arms, talk peacefully, and things will change.

I agree, this is no comparison that should be made, millions of jews being incinerated is not even nearly what's happening here. This thread is wildly off topic anyway.

I feel so sorry for that Israeli girl, and as a New Zealander I am hugely embarrassed, fucken idiot NZ'rs pretending their voice really makes any kind of impact on an international scale- what a joke, protesting the Iraq war, spray painting an Australian Naval Frigate, the fucken bloody maori NGAPUHI tribe punks spray painting the Australian C-17 by breaking into the RNZAF base in auckland and writing babyish tag on it, this latest tennis bollocks- iv'e actually heard of Naval personnel being attacked by protesters in the city (WHAT THE FUCK! DID THEY FORGET THE NZDF IS INVOVLED IN PEACE KEEPING AND RE-BUILDING DAMAGED AREAS TO HELP THE PEOPLE?)
I think we are actually becoming quite a disgusting race of people personally- I get to see it at street level whilst i'm out doing my job- first hand, and I feel bloody sorry for the cops I tell you that much, we should be looking inside our own back-yard before we peer over the fence and abuse the neighbours, if you disagree please let me know- but please make sure your actively invovled in the community and see it first hand before you get high and mighty.

This Minto prick- well I hope something really painfull and disgusting happens to him, he's an absolute ass and needs to stop ruining what could be a nice country with bollocks like this, I would have been exceedingly pissed off had I paid to see that tennis match and had to listen to that shit- in fact I think someone should find out all of his important events in his life starting with his b'day/anniversaries etc and we can follow HIm around and protest his existance- just absolutely ruin his existance until he either shuts up or fucks off into hiding somewhere.

What a rant.I must be tired!

[spudchucka]

look.. heres the way i see it ...



Hamas is launching rockets into Israel.. have been for a while now..they are also hiding amongst civilian populations and using schools, hospitals and mosques as shelter


this is the same tactic that Al queda, Hezbollah, etc have been using forever..

then when they start getting fire.. the liberal media starts lapping it up and calling the ones cranking rounds downrange "war criminals" (ratings!!!)

fact is .. if the civilian populace would turn thier backs on the insurgents and start pointing fingers in the direction of the insurgents and clearing out long enough to sweep aand clear then the fighting would be over quickly

i have no respect for a supposed "soldier" who rely's on human shields..then cries when they get blown to shit..


cowards


far as im concerned.. Israel should hit them harder and make sure the fight aint worth it for the enemy

Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction to their rocket attacks was going to be but they persisted with them anyway. Then once Israel does respond they can't wait to show the misery Israel is inflicting on their people and the images of killed and maimed Palestinian women and kids is flashed on TV screens all around the world.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that Hamas have deliberately provoked Israel into the current offensive attacks into Gaza and therefore, knowing full well what the consequences of firing rockets into Israel was going to be, they are willingly sacrificing their own people in order to achieve some misguided political gain over Israel.

Although the response by Israel seems to be totally out of proportion I don't blame them one bit for taking the stance they have. Minto and has mates should be protesting against the Palestinian / Hamas political stance of sacrificing their own innocent civilian populations as a means of globally discrediting Israel.

[ManDownUnder]

I've seen Minto head protests against the rugby world tour, pay rates at one of the companies in the building, Israel's operations of late... what else has he been involved with?

The dude's just a fucken busy body... No problems with people that stand up for a cause - but what would drive a man to stand up for every cause? It's an ego trip.

*ding* next!

[Winston001]

Call me old fashioned but I'll examine the messengers message before I'll shoot him. He could call up a 'paper/tv and try to get some air time with probably no success or he can use her to put the message up in lights which has succeeded reasonably well from the sounds of it.



Minor it may be but it still stinks. I just find it sad that most people couldn't give a toss or can't be bothered doing the most basic research before arriving at a judgement. People are all to eager to make snap judgements based on something that has happened without asking the basic question of why it has happened.

We agree on Minto. It's a legitimate protest and draws attention to the Palestinian issue. That is how effective protests work - get into a media event and get your voice heard. The tennis player is merely the excuse. It's the price we pay for having an open democracy. I do think Minto is ego driven.

As for people not giving a toss, if you look through this thread you'll see distress expressed about the suffering in Gaza. Not from everyone of course, there are plenty of us who think the Israelis have suffered plenty of distress of their own - but for some reason the liberal media overlook that. A blown-up Israeli family just isn't newsworthy.

As for research, there are plenty of intelligent people here who don't make snap judgements. However if their views are different from your own, then it can be natural to dismiss them instead of listening.

I assume you are focused on the 1967 Six Day War when you refer to taking Gaza. Israel launched the first attack. How dare they!! The reason was that Egypt expelled the UN peacekeeping force from the Sinai. Egypt then stationed 1000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border. Egypt also closed the Straits of Tiran to any Israeli shipping.

Oddly enough these innocent actions made the Israelis feel uneasy. To balance things they took out the Egyptian air force. Jordan then attacked Israel and it was all on. Another loser for the Arab nations.

Please also remember that Israel later gave back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt when, if they'd been the rabid aggressors portrayed by some commentators, they'd have annexed it.

[Winston001]

There are quite a few parallels actually.
In 1938 Germany moved against borders mandated in 1919 by an International Agreement. Israel is doing the same thing (actually occupying land against the tenets of the agreement that allow the creation of the state).

Sorry Oscar, understand your point, but comparing Israel to Nazi Germany just doesn't fly. For example, after the 1967 Six Day War, Israel held the Sinai, enough land to enlarge Israel by 3 times. Yep, the Sinai is 3 times the size of Israel. Talk about Lebensraum!!

Instead they gave it back to Egypt. Ultimately this produced a lasting peace.

The only truth in this argument is that there is precious little truth to go around, and that anyone who tries to argue the rights or one side against the other is a zealot or a fool (most likely both).

Not at all. Just because a subject is difficult doesn't mean we should ignore it. Discussing the Palestinian issue encourages us to read other points of view. It also draws out members with personal knowledge such as Sarge and Street Gerbil. Terbang has interesting experiences too.

Don't dismiss others as zealots or fools simply because you disagree with them.

[Oscar]

Sorry Oscar, understand your point, but comparing Israel to Nazi Germany just doesn't fly. For example, after the 1967 Six Day War, Israel held the Sinai, enough land to enlarge Israel by 3 times. Yep, the Sinai is 3 times the size of Israel. Talk about Lebensraum!!

Instead they gave it back to Egypt. Ultimately this produced a lasting peace.

I wasn't comparing Israel with Germany. I was contrasting your explanation of what Israel is doing with Nazi Germany. The point being, that given enough time/bullshit/whatever you can justify most anything.

Not at all. Just because a subject is difficult doesn't mean we should ignore it. Discussing the Palestinian issue encourages us to read other points of view. It also draws out members with personal knowledge such as Sarge and Street Gerbil. Terbang has interesting experiences too.

Don't dismiss others as zealots or fools simply because you disagree with them.

Read my comment again.
I didn't say that you were a zealot or a fool because the subject is difficult or because I disagree with your viewpoint. I said only a zealot or a fool would try to argue one side wholly right and the other wrong, given the history of the region.

[Winston001]

I

Read my comment again.
I didn't say that you were a zealot or a fool because the subject is difficult or because I disagree with your viewpoint. I said only a zealot or a fool would try to argue one side wholly right and the other wrong, given the history of the region.

Yeah no worries, I didn't take it personally.

Just to show the other side, the Arabs in Palestine started protesting against the Ottomans in 1880 because they were allowing land sales to Jewish immigrants. Not all Arabs accepted or liked the land sales.

Under the British Mandate, the Zionist immigrants had political representation - the Arabs none.

Jewish settlers had the external support of organisations in the US - the Palestinians had none. This was in the days before the Arab nations discovered the power of oil.

Palestinians were forceably removed from the West Bank in 1948 after a secret deal between the new Israel and Jordan whereby Jordan took over the West Bank.

The Palestinians have been cynically used as pawns by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria for decades. Now that these countries are at peace (uneasily in the case of Syria) with Israel, they have lost interest in their brothers plight.

If I was 20yrs old, lived in crowded poor conditions, no job, and grew up being told it was the fault of the Jewish enemy over the wall, I'd be pretty pissed off.

[Oscar]

Yeah no worries, I didn't take it personally.

Just to show the other side, the Arabs in Palestine started protesting against the Ottomans in 1880 because they were allowing land sales to Jewish immigrants. Not all Arabs accepted or liked the land sales.

Under the British Mandate, the Zionist immigrants had political representation - the Arabs none.

Jewish settlers had the external support of organisations in the US - the Palestinians had none. This was in the days before the Arab nations discovered the power of oil.

Palestinians were forceably removed from the West Bank in 1948 after a secret deal between the new Israel and Jordan whereby Jordan took over the West Bank.

The Palestinians have been cynically used as pawns by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria for decades. Now that these countries are at peace (uneasily in the case of Syria) with Israel, they have lost interest in their brothers plight.

If I was 20yrs old, lived in crowded poor conditions, no job, and grew up being told it was the fault of the Jewish enemy over the wall, I'd be pretty pissed off.

I used to think the Israelis were heroic (and in the Six Day and Yom Kippur Wars they damn well were), in fighting the corrupt Soviet backed tyrants of the region, but lately I just can't see much difference between the sides.

Suicide Bombing = Morally bankrupt.
Hellfire Missiles into public areas = Morally bankrupt

A pox on both your houses, and just for good measure, a pox on Minto as well. The women is a Professional tennis player, not a representative of her country - leave her to ply her trade.

[Swoop]

Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction to their rocket attacks was going to be but they persisted with them anyway. Then once Israel does respond they can't wait to show the misery Israel is inflicting on their people and the images of killed and maimed Palestinian women and kids is flashed on TV screens all around the world.

The only people who have been fooled are those who have listened to/ watched the media who have been mis-led by the terrorists.
Hamas is doing well to drag the media around and show them the injured...

I've seen Minto head protests against the rugby world tour, pay rates at one of the companies in the building, Israel's operations of late... what else has he been involved with?

The dude's just a fucken busy body..

Who was it that was commenting about "professional Protestors" earlier in this thread? Nicely put MDU.

Please also remember that Israel later gave back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt when, if they'd been the rabid aggressors portrayed by some commentators, they'd have annexed it.

The Egyptians were very lucky. They could have easily lost the entire Suez canal!

Hellfire Missiles into public areas = Morally bankrupt

A Hellfire is a guided missile, unlike those fired from Gaza. The terrorists on the receiving end can choose not to be in the viewfinder if they so wish.