Trackdays - 3 groups or 4?

[Mort]

I'm interested in views here....

Compare and contrast :

3 Groups - Kiwi Trackdays

• 6 sessions
• 30 minutes between riding sessions
• Active all day - very little time to sit around getting bored

4 Groups - MotoTT and Redline

• Minimum of 4 sessions
• at least 60 minutes between sessions and sometimes 2 hours around lunch
• Very very boring

Some of the track day organisers say the 4th session is to accomodate Motards. I think this stinks because a) There aren't enough of them and b) If they rode in the courteous manner expected of everyone else on the track there wouldn't be a need to segregate them. The REAL reason for the 4th group is so the organisers can book more riders for the track with an extra group. More profit for the organiser, less track time for you.

Only Steve Fishers outfit (KiwiTrackdays) runs the 3 group format at Taupo from what I can tell. I did one of his days last month followed (next day) by a MotoTT day. I can only say that by comparison, the 4 group format absolutely sucks. A whole day at the track and I only managed 4 sessions plus a short 10 minute blast. Sitting around the garage for hours waiting to ride. Around lunch the break between sessions was over two hours !!!. So much time is spent waiting and waiting. Many people go home for the before the last session because it's really not worth waiting another hour for a shortened last session on track. They go home because they are bored waiting. The only real solution to getting track time on these days is to book twice in 2 groups - Should that be necessary ?

The previous day (3 group format) was the total opposite. Between sessions you have enough time to sort the bike, have a rest, take a drink then bang... you're back out on the track again doing what you went to the track to do. You get in to a good active rhythm and by the end of the day you feel like you've got the best out of the day.

By comparison I cannot understand why MotoTT days are over subscribed and KiwiTrackdays are not. As far as event format is concerned there is no comparison. You get a great day with KiwiTrackdays and you get a long day sat on your arse with some riding thrown in at MotoTT.


So, a big high five to Steve Fisher and Kiwi Trackdays who without doubt run the best trackdays. He still understands why we do track days - to get time on the track.

[J-rod]

I'm interested in views here....

Compare and contrast :

3 Groups - Kiwi Trackdays

• 6 sessions
• 30 minutes between riding sessions
• Active all day - very little time to sit around getting bored

4 Groups - MotoTT and Redline

• Minimum of 4 sessions
• at least 60 minutes between sessions and sometimes 2 hours around lunch
• Very very boring

Some of the track day organisers say the 4th session is to accomodate Motards. I think this stinks because a) There aren't enough of them and b) If they rode in the courteous manner expected of everyone else on the track there wouldn't be a need to segregate them. The REAL reason for the 4th group is so the organisers can book more riders for the track with an extra group. More profit for the organiser, less track time for you.

Only Steve Fishers outfit (KiwiTrackdays) runs the 3 group format at Taupo from what I can tell. I did one of his days last month followed (next day) by a MotoTT day. I can only say that by comparison, the 4 group format absolutely sucks. A whole day at the track and I only managed 4 sessions plus a short 10 minute blast. Sitting around the garage for hours waiting to ride. Around lunch the break between sessions was over two hours !!!. So much time is spent waiting and waiting. Many people go home for the before the last session because it's really not worth waiting another hour for a shortened last session on track. They go home because they are bored waiting. The only real solution to getting track time on these days is to book twice in 2 groups - Should that be necessary ?

The previous day (3 group format) was the total opposite. Between sessions you have enough time to sort the bike, have a rest, take a drink then bang... you're back out on the track again doing what you went to the track to do. You get in to a good active rhythm and by the end of the day you feel like you've got the best out of the day.

By comparison I cannot understand why MotoTT days are over subscribed and KiwiTrackdays are not. As far as event format is concerned there is no comparison. You get a great day with KiwiTrackdays and you get a long day sat on your arse with some riding thrown in at MotoTT.


So, a big high five to Steve Fisher and Kiwi Trackdays who without doubt run the best trackdays. He still understands why we do track days - to get time on the track.

The best thing I found about the Kiwitrack day was that the track wasn't packed, there were a lot of bikes, but not so much that it became an obstacle working with them...

On a second note, does anyone know of a way to get your bike to the Taupo track for March's track day, say other than riding it? I'm guessing a lot of people on here go to them and maybe going to Steve's next one, anyone interested in trailer pooling?

[GIXser]

ive ridden both, and i think that they both run great trackdays, even four sessions is a lot of riding at high speed, you need to keep your wits about you,
i dont think it makes a lot of difference 4 or 6 , its about safety and fun

[st3f]

I'm interested in views here....

Compare and contrast :

3 Groups - Kiwi Trackdays

• 6 sessions
• 30 minutes between riding sessions
• Active all day - very little time to sit around getting bored

4 Groups - MotoTT and Redline

• Minimum of 4 sessions
• at least 60 minutes between sessions and sometimes 2 hours around lunch
• Very very boring

What you left out was that the MotoTT sessions are longer:

• 4*20 + 10 = 90 minutes
• 6*15 = 90 minutes

You get exactly the same amount of track time, and with longer sessions you have longer to focus on whatever you're working on rather than constantly running out of time, sitting around for a bit and then having to get back in the groove again.

[discotex]

By comparison I cannot understand why MotoTT days are over subscribed and KiwiTrackdays are not.

My insurance considers full scrutineering and enforcement of passing rules a requirement for trackday cover to be extended.

So far that is only MotoTT that I know of.

[sinfull]

What you left out was that the MotoTT sessions are longer:

• 4*20 + 10 = 90 minutes
• 6*15 = 90 minutes

You get exactly the same amount of track time, and with longer sessions you have longer to focus on whatever you're working on rather than constantly running out of time, sitting around for a bit and then having to get back in the groove again.

My insurance considers full scrutineering and enforcement of passing rules a requirement for trackday cover to be extended.

So far that is only MotoTT that I know of.

Both valid points Mort !
But hey it's track time i'm into and since i have given up road riding, i both need/can afford to do all available eg both and more !

You know what i'd really wish for if i could ? Thats access to a track whenever i wish, so i could become ride fit ! Once or twice a month aint enough in my book !~

[puddy]

My insurance considers full scrutineering and enforcement of passing rules a requirement for trackday cover to be extended.

So far that is only MotoTT that I know of.

I attend both Kiwi and Moto days, and am happy to continue to do so. But if I had to choose, I'd say the behaviour at Kiwi days is a little better............and with regard to enforcement of passing rules .............. it's just not a trackday unless some CUNT cuts you off, and they still get to ride the rest of the day!

[sinfull]

I attend both Kiwi and Moto days, and am happy to continue to do so. But if I had to choose, I'd say the behaviour at Kiwi days is a little better............and with regard to enforcement of passing rules .............. it's just not a trackday unless some CUNT cuts you off, and they still get to ride the rest of the day!

Cant say i have experienced that TBH, I hope i haven't done that to anyone ? Hard to tell if ya do, not havin mirrors an all !

[Mort]

What you left out was that the MotoTT sessions are longer:

• 4*20 + 10 = 90 minutes
• 6*15 = 90 minutes

Thats not correct...

If MotoTT run 4 groups and each get 90 minutes that is 360 minutes total track time for the day.

If KiwiTrackdays run the same 90 minutes with 3 groups that is 270 minutes.

Kiwitracks days run the same length day (10 - 4:30) but each group gets 6 x 20 minutes (120) minutes. Which equals the same 360 minutes total track time for the event across the 3 groups.

In other words you get more track time and less waiting time. Its very noticable when you are doing it.


As far as how the day is run I rate KiwiTracksays higher too (this is not a slag off of MotoTT but the issue was raised above so I am responding). If anything I would say the Kiwi trackday is better managed.

At MotoTT , I have seen :

1. Ambulances turning up at 12 - I have seen on two occasions that they run sessions without ambulances - that is unacceptable to my mind
2. Stating it is OK (at the riders briefing) for riders to stop on the track and help a fallen rider. I have video of riders parked up and running across the main straight... thats's pretty bad.
3. Pillions on track - that is asking for it
4. Stunts... unnecessary risk

KiwiTrackdays have the same passing rules as far as I can tell...

I'm not slagging MotoTT as a firm. They are nice people and the event suits most people. But, by comparison you do get more track time and less endless waiting with a 3 group format. I think they should also tighten up on safety a bit.

[Biggles08]

At MotoTT , I have seen :

1. Ambulances turning up at 12 - I have seen on two occasions that they run sessions without ambulances - that is unacceptable to my mind
2. Stating it is OK (at the riders briefing) for riders to stop on the track and help a fallen rider. I have video of riders parked up and running across the main straight... thats's pretty bad.
3. Pillions on track - that is asking for it
4. Stunts... unnecessary risk

Bollocks!!!! Mort...you are full of SHIT!!!!

I have been to most of the MotoTT track days all throughout 2008 and can 100% say they are THE SAFEST track day organizers on the market today. Steve at Kiwitrackdays runs a great day too but for you to state absolute rubbish about MotoTT days here is un-fucking-acceptable! MotoTT organizers go to great pains to protect their integrity and safety procedures and as has already been mentioned before, are one of the few track days that most insurance companies will cover for!

Like I said, Kiwitrackdays are great too and I have never had any issues there BUT FFS Mort, where do you get off telling complete lies?!?! :slap:

[CHOPPA]

Kiwitrackdays suits me better with some of there rules, ive had lots of words with moto tt about there group setup.
Moto tt dont really have a group that cater for fast riders, they have a fast group that has fast riders and motards that are f*&ken slow then they have a medium fast group with equally as slow sport bikes so you cant win.
Its put me off riding track days a bit but in saying that the guys from moto tt are such a good bunch of really well organised people and i can understand why insurance companys let you use there service. There days are not designed to be a test session for race bikes

[sinfull]

There days are not designed to be a test session for race bikes

Very good point and it was only at a recent trackday that the guys at motott were checking to make sure no timers were used !
Why some might ask ? Well as above, they aint designed as a test session and prolly shouldn't be used as one, cause the insures have stipulated that for them to have the priviledge of the cover they offer, timers are not allowed !
BUT and it's a big but (one t thanks) where else can i reduce my lap times ?
Sure i wont go out there with a timer, cause i respect that it's a rule them guys cant avoid and have to hold up !
I don't actually mind riding with the tards (sure i aint going that quick that they are in my way lol more like i want their corner speed)
You know what's really missing is the guys like you and Eddie, who now have priorities (rubber wears out) running in the fast groups, to drag a few seconds (that wont be measured) off other riders times ! I do both the tt days and the Kiwi (have not made it to a redline as yet) and Promo (used race) tyres (you can slow down if ya want) could be worth using up at any of them days, which i'm sure would be greatly appreciated by any number of riders !
Ya like that twist ?

[CHOPPA]

Very good point and it was only at a recent trackday that the guys at motott were checking to make sure no timers were used !
Why some might ask ? Well as above, they aint designed as a test session and prolly shouldn't be used as one, cause the insures have stipulated that for them to have the priviledge of the cover they offer, timers are not allowed !
BUT and it's a big but (one t thanks) where else can i reduce my lap times ?
Sure i wont go out there with a timer, cause i respect that it's a rule them guys cant avoid and have to hold up !
I don't actually mind riding with the tards (sure i aint going that quick that they are in my way lol more like i want their corner speed)
You know what's really missing is the guys like you and Eddie, who now have priorities (rubber wears out) running in the fast groups, to drag a few seconds (that wont be measured) off other riders times ! I do both the tt days and the Kiwi (have not made it to a redline as yet) and Promo (used race) tyres (you can slow down if ya want) could be worth using up at any of them days, which i'm sure would be greatly appreciated by any number of riders !
Ya like that twist ?

Ill still go to track days for sure, ill always have plenty of tyres cheap and im good at changin them lol I really enjoy just playing around with my mates at track days and trying to help them go quicker... well untill someone goes screaming past then i have a diff idea lol

Ill be using track days to get used to my new bike when i get it.

If anyone is interested in some things i might be able to help them out with to go fast just let me know cause id be more then happy to come help out and it would be a bit of an ego trip for me too so thats cool hahaha

[Mort]

Bollocks!!!! Mort...you are full of SHIT!!!!

I have been to most of the MotoTT track days all throughout 2008 and can 100% say they are THE SAFEST track day organizers on the market today. Steve at Kiwitrackdays runs a great day too but for you to state absolute rubbish about MotoTT days here is un-fucking-acceptable! MotoTT organizers go to great pains to protect their integrity and safety procedures and as has already been mentioned before, are one of the few track days that most insurance companies will cover for!

Like I said, Kiwitrackdays are great too and I have never had any issues there BUT FFS Mort, where do you get off telling complete lies?!?! :slap:

Hang on a minute.. what you are saying is "un-fucking-acceptable"... to call me a liar you should have some evidence. What I said is absolutely true and was made in response to an issue raised by another poster about comparable safety between the firms. It was NOT meant as an attack on the safety record of MotoTT. From what I can see they have a similar accident rate but I think the risks are different.

All these points are true. How they affect safety depends on your point of view. Some may say its fine. Others may not. It won't stop me from riding a MotoTT day but I think these issues should be addressed... that is my opinion... and the 4 points mentioned are facts.

1. On the 17th january I saw two ambos turn up at about 12 noon. On a previous track day over a year ago I saw them turn up at a similar time. That time we were warned that no ambulances were available in the morning and sessions were allowed to continue.

2. there were perhaps 90 witnesses at the riders briefing that heard one of the organisers say it was OK to stop on track and I have a fucking video of a few riders doing just that.

3. I did see pillions on track on the 17th and on other days... ask around.... I'm pretty sure others noticed too. (I didn't see pillions on a KiwiTrack day yet. I don't know if they are banned and many may think there is no risk... I disagree.

4. Stunts appear to be tolerated (not explicitly prohibited) by MotoTT where as at KiwiTrack days they are explicitly prohibited as stated at the briefing. Again, some think this is an acceptable risk and it is tolerated.

I never said and would not say that MotoTT days are unsafe. There are issues though and I think I am correct in raising them in the perfectly legitimate cause of increased track day safety.. ...

So wind yer neck in Biggles... and stop slinging unjustified allegations about lying around..

[Biggles08]

Hang on a minute.. what you are saying is "un-fucking-acceptable"... to call me a liar you should have some fuckin evidence. What I said is absolutely true and was made in response to an issue raised by another poster about comparable safety between the firms. It was NOT meant as an attack on the safety record of MotoTT. From what I can see they have a similar accident rate but I think the risks are different.

All these points are true. How they affect safety depends on your point of view. Some may say its fine. Others may not. It won't stop me from riding a MotoTT day but I think these issues should be addressed... that is my opinion... and the 4 points mentioned are facts.

1. On the 17th january I saw two ambos turn up at about 12 noon. On a previous track day over a year ago I saw them turn up at a similar time. That time we were warned that no ambulances were available in the morning and sessions were allowed to continue.

2. there were perhaps 90 witnesses at the riders briefing that heard one of the organisers say it was OK to stop on track and I have a fucking video of a few riders doing just that.

3. I did see pillions on track on the 17th and on other days... ask around.... I'm pretty sure others noticed too. (I didn't see pillions on a KiwiTrack day yet. I don't know if they are banned and many may think there is no risk... I disagree.

4. Stunts appear to be tolerated (not explicitly prohibited) by MotoTT where as at KiwiTrack days they are explicitly prohibited as stated at the briefing. Again, some think this is an acceptable risk and it is tolerated.

I never said and would not say that MotoTT days are unsafe. There are issues though and I think I am correct in raising them in the perfectly legitimate cause of increased track day safety.. ...

So wind yer neck in Biggles... and stop slinging unjustified allegations about lying around..

I hesitate to respond to you Mort on the basis you are obviously a fuck knuckle but hey....can't stop myself.

Dates and times please...if you want to talk about facts....tell me exactly when MotoTT ran without qualified first aid at hand...17th Jan?????? 2006???? I think you will find the closest you could get was over two years ago AND there was in fact two other people on site that were fully qualified in administering first aid.....didn't know that huh??? maybe you should sort out your facts first...so I repeat myself BOLLOCKS to you!

Like I said, I have attended most of MotoTT track days all of 2008 and NEVER has it been stated at any of these meetings that it is OK to stop and 'help out' a mate....IN FACT...it has been stipulated EXCESSIVELY that it is NOT ok to stop on the track...EVER!.... If you have so called "evidence" of this occuring it is merely "evidence" that some dicks (mmm....I wonder if you can relate?) have chosen to ignore instructions...in which I'm sure they were harshly warned for after they came off the track. So once again BOLLOCKS to you!

Pillions are dangerous? So should we ban passengers on the road too? Tell me how you think 2-up in the slow/medium group is dangerous? How are people supposed to learn how to control a bike with a passenger in a safe environment...on the road huh??? Bollocks Bollocks and more Bollocks to you!

Stunts are tollerated?????...well until recently 'wheelies' were tollerated when riders were well away from other bikes on the track...but due to dicks (mmmmm....seems to be a re-occuring theme here Mort) once again not heeding instructions correctly, they have been banned from the track...."explicitly prohibited" actually, to use your own words. Ummmmmm BOLLOCKS!

So wind yer neck in Biggles... and stop slinging unjustified allegations about lying around..

Allegations herewith now justified....LIER.... I would suggest you stop pulling yourself Mort...it ain't going to get any bigger!