Trackdays - 3 groups or 4?

[enigma51]

Been at both and enjoy the motott events a lot more.

I stop going to the kiwi trackdays due to two back to back events with some huge crashes (6 -> more bikes taken out). Dont know if it was just a simple case of bad luck or bad management or maybe even both.


and mort and dont know where you got the its ok to stop on track thing. I have never heard of that.

What have seen at a Kiwi trackdays is the marshall jumping on to the track with a broom to cleanup something on the track while the session continues. Now that was different.

I would make a suggestion that you keep your comments to yourself mort as you not doing kiwi - trackdays or motott any favours by posting on here. If you have concern about safety or anything else i would suggest talking to the organisers.

[Mort]

Jesus Biggles... what a rant...

Maybe you didn't notice the ambos arrive late on 17/1/09. I did. Correct, the previous event was about 2 years ago when I observed this. (2008 was busy for me and I was avoiding 4 session days) . Nothing changed this time though. It has never been said to me that MotoTT have alternate emergency cover as a replacement for ambulances. I am left to assume that when there isn't an ambulance there is no qualified and equipped emergency cover. Do MotoTT provide this cover? Are they fully qualified and equipped to deal with track day type incidents ?

This is their statement on their website :

Q. Will medical help be available at the track?

A. Yes an ambulance and qualified staff will be stationed on-site for the whole day.

That, to me, means an ambulance with it's staff will be there "for the whole day". As a paying customer I think I have the right to expect the minimum medical cover they promise on their website. I also happen to think it is a necessity for an event of this type regardless.

On the subject of stopping on track. May be you weren't listening at the briefing with regard to stopping on track. I specifically did. At the time I thought it was the wrong thing to say at a briefing.

Maybe you didn't ride the session where there were several riders stopped on track and walking across I did...and here is the proof . Unusual for several riders to stop if it was explicitly prohibited don't you think ? It's not unusal if it was explicitly permitted (which it was).

You may think pillions are an acceptable risk. I don't and that is just my view... just as you have yours. I didn't say it was dangerous, I think it's an avoidable risk. I really don't think a trackday is the place to practice pillion riding either.

If stunts are in fact banned by MotoTT then thats fine. Again...its an avoidable risk. On previous events they were not and they were not verbally prohibited at the briefing on the 17th. (Nor could I see reference on the website).

Before you explode in to another torrent of abuse Biggles, MotoTT days are not unsafe. These are perfectly legitimate concerns. Anything can happen on a track day as you know and it's all about mitigating and controlling risk. MotoTT do some things well.... Organisation and scrutineering bikes and kit for instance. But it is somewhat strange to put so much effort in to scrutineering and then let bikes out on track without an ambulance...

I'm just an objective trackday rider responding to a point here biggles. They are observations meant sincerely for constructive discussion to progress safety (not abuse) . I wonder if MotoTT, who appear to sponsor you, are entirely happy with the abusive way you have "discussed" points on their behalf.

[Biggles08]

Jesus Biggles... what a rant...

I can give as good as you Mort!

Maybe you didn't notice the ambos arrive late on 17/1/09. I did.

So Ambos arriving late means there is no medical trained staff there huh (by the way I doubt they did arrive late anyway but can't say as I was not there)? Dude...you are the one making 'false statements' with no 'proof' that you seemed so eager to get from me! I have in fact checked with MotoTT regarding whether emergency staff were present for the whole day on 17/1/09 and have been told they were....I would far rather take their word over yours considering the top form you have shown here! I challenge you to call them up and tell them they are lieing...go for it bro...BOLLOCKS!

Correct, the previous event was about 2 years ago when I observed this. (2008 was busy for me and I was avoiding 4 session days) . Nothing changed this time though. It has never been said to me that MotoTT have alternate emergency cover as a replacement for ambulances. I am left to assume that when there isn't an ambulance there is no qualified and equipped emergency cover. Do MotoTT provide this cover? Are they fully qualified and equipped to deal with track day type incidents ?

You ASSSSSSSume an awful lot Mort...get some facts before you slander a great organisation like MotoTT! Like I said, they always had suitably trained staff present before anyone went on the track and you saying they didn't IS A LIE! For a start....did you know everyone there that day??? Maybe, possibly, concievable there was someone there that was in fact there as the qualified first aid/medic...maybe?? Bollocks again to you my small minded man!

This is their statement on their website :


That, to me, means an ambulance with it's staff will be there "for the whole day". As a paying customer I think I have the right to expect the minimum medical cover they promise on their website. I also happen to think it is a necessity for an event of this type regardless.

And they do?! Just because you make assumptions on a topic does not make it fact...how about doing what Enigma suggested and take your concerns up with MotoTT directly....Oh, I know why because you know your full of shit!

On the subject of stopping on track. May be you weren't listening at the briefing with regard to stopping on track. I specifically did. At the time I thought it was the wrong thing to say at a briefing.

Lies Lies Lies...no one has ever said its safe to stop and 'help out a mate!' NEVER!

Maybe you didn't ride the session where there were several riders stopped on track and walking across I did...and here is the proof . Unusual for several riders to stop if it was explicitly prohibited don't you think ? It's not unusal if it was explicitly permitted (which it was).

Like I said....ignoring the fact that one of those riders in your video "proof" was in fact one of the MotoTT crew (yes thats right, he stopped to help out the downed rider as he always carries a walkie talkie while he is riding on the track for this exact reson) AND, ignoring the fact that the chequered flag had already been waved and the session was ended and you were on your way into the pits...this "proves" nothing with regards to what MotoTT regulations are...I will spell it out to you dumbarse..."IT IS NEVER OK TO STOP ON THE TRACK TO HELP OUT YOUR MATES!" and it is a rule MotoTT enforce vigorously!

You may think pillions are an acceptable risk. I don't and that is just my view... just as you have yours. I didn't say it was dangerous, I think it's an avoidable risk. I really don't think a trackday is the place to practice pillion riding either.

Well at this point I see little value to the human race on 'your opinion' as you have clearly shown in this thread that it is based on very little in the way of grey matter...so I shall move on.

If stunts are in fact banned by MotoTT then that's fine. Again...its an avoidable risk. On previous events they were not and they were not verbally prohibited at the briefing on the 17th. (Nor could I see reference on the website).

Well they are banned because of people not being able to do them safely away from other riders. I don't stunt/wheelie myself, but I know that a few track day guys are upset at this new rule as they want to practice their wheelies etc but now have no where to do so. If it was done in a responsible manner I wouldn't have a problem with it personally...but hey, I'm not the one making the rules.

Before you explode in to another torrent of abuse Biggles, MotoTT days are not unsafe. These are perfectly legitimate concerns.

No they are not they are a bunch of LIES!

Anything can happen on a track day as you know and it's all about mitigating and controlling risk. MotoTT do some things well.... Organisation and scrutineering bikes and kit for instance. But it is somewhat strange to put so much effort in to scrutineering and then let bikes out on track without an ambulance...

If you really had a concern about this (inaccurate assumption) then take it up with MotoTT directly at the time! I know why you didn't though...because it never happened that's why!

I'm just an objective trackday rider responding to a point here biggles. They are observations meant sincerely for constructive discussion to progress safety (not abuse) .

You are a dumbfuck who is hell bent on lies Mort! I am merely saying what everyone else who is reading this thread is thinking...You need to grow the fuck up and if your really all that concerned about how MotoTT run their days go and tell them directly...or piss off, I'm pretty sure you won't be missed!

I wonder if MotoTT, who appear to sponsor you, are entirely happy with the abusive way you have "discussed" points on their behalf.

HA! have you ever heard the term "assumptions are the mother of all fuckups!" Well my small minded dipshit...in this case you are the fuckup!

I have no association with MotoTT in any form apart from thinking they are a awesome bunch of people who have put more into motorcycling than anyone else I know. They have been the platform for me to progress my riding to the level where I can go racing...for this I give homage to them and include their stickers on my bike and my signature...I want to that's all.

I would love to meet you someday Mort so I could tell all this to your face...I'm not some shit stirring, lie spreading kiwibiker who sits behind his computer all day...I actually get out and do it...so next time your at a track day, come look for me...Marcus (Biggles08), racebike #808...I'll tell you your a dumbfuck to your face!

[Mort]

You should go to anger management... you have issues.

MotoTT have run sessions without ambo cover in the past (as you have confirmed) and on the 17th I did see the ambos enter the circuit and park up at about 12 noon. Unless they were parked somewhere else on the circuit in the morning they must have just arrived. I know what I saw.

At this point I don't accept that there is a credible and fully equipped alternative to ambulances either provided by MotoTT or amongst the site staff or even the riders. Attendant persons being qualified in first aid is not what I am talking about here. I mean fully equipped ambulances with trained staff capable of delivering an assured standard of emergency aid to a possibly seriously injured rider on the scene with a few minutes.

On the subject of stopping on track... I know what I heard and I know what happened as a result. Whether you choose to believe that I really don't care one bit. Every one agrees it's wrong to stop on the track. How you can tell from that video that one of the riders was a marshall I don't know... I can't nor was I even aware of his presence (which surely I should be). What I did see was at least 4 riders stop.... and the chequered flag came out AFTER I went through....as if that matters.

One thing is clear from this discussion Biggles. You seem incapable of a fair minded discussion without resorting to insult and abuse and threat. If I do see you at a track day I won't be going anywhere near you. You need to be avoided.

[Morcs]

Moto TT is good with 4 groups. That way it keeps squids out of group 1.

And you get more than enough tracktime. If you have enough energy to do every single session (including the ones still running after half the people have left) then you obviously arent riding hard enough and may as well go on the road where you can nana all day, for free.

[enigma51]

As hard as it is to get insurance for trackdays do you really think your helping by bad mouthing organisers?

[Quasievil]

At MotoTT , I have seen :

1. Ambulances turning up at 12 - I have seen on two occasions that they run sessions without ambulances - that is unacceptable to my mind
2. Stating it is OK (at the riders briefing) for riders to stop on the track and help a fallen rider. I have video of riders parked up and running across the main straight... thats's pretty bad.
3. Pillions on track - that is asking for it
4. Stunts... unnecessary risk

They swap the Ambos at lunch time bro, I was there and have been to nearly every one of the trackdays last year incl the 17/1/09 and honestly I cant recall any of what youre saying, apart from a pillion, but they are in a suitable group.

Ive been to all the others and I prefer Motott by far

Also more track time aint always a good thing, puts more pressure on the bike and the rider, to much and then bins happen, 4 x 20 mins is plenty enough.

Lastly you can get a dog up ya in relation to the Motard behaviour thing lol, it works in both directions and we have as much right as you do the track even if we do upset your "Im like Rossi moments of glory"
Crap behaviour on both sides, so dont start segregating Motard like so many sportsbike riders seem to these days

[Dooly]

What a great read this has been.

On a positive note I think, it will be my first time on the track at Taupo this Friday.
Looking forward to it.

Hope I dont get in the way of all the hotshots, but I'm only in GP3.

Looks like it will be a KB gathering.

[Morcs]

Mort I remember you saying about british trackdays, they easily cost in excess of 500 quid. ($1,200)

Considering a trackday in taupo, with gas and accomodation from auckland and dinner can all be done for $300, you should be more than content with what we get for our money.

[FROSTY:Me]

Just to clear a couple of points up.
1) No ambo no bikes on track simple /clearcut. On the day in question the ambo was there but it was medical personel new to the MotoTT normal placement and the ambo moved at about lunchtime when asked to by motoTT staff.
2)It is definitely a part of MotoTT riders briefing that you do NOT stop on track to help a mate EVER.
The session in question there were 3 Moto TT Lines bikes on the track--rolling marshalls if you like. THEY were the people who stopped to asess the downed rider.(NO they were not wearing their vests as newbees had them on) The SAFEST/fastest way to get to A DOWNED rider is on a bike. Have a look at the "incriminating" pictures and you will see an RT hanging off off one of them.

[prettybillie]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=93199

This link seems to have to vote of the masses..........

[Biggles08]

You should go to anger management... you have issues.

You should go to a mental institute where you will have an audience that will tolerate dumb-arses!

MotoTT have run sessions without ambo cover in the past (as you have confirmed) and on the 17th I did see the ambos enter the circuit and park up at about 12 noon. Unless they were parked somewhere else on the circuit in the morning they must have just arrived. I know what I saw.

LIER! keep telling lies and I will keep calling you a lier!

At this point I don't accept that there is a credible and fully equipped alternative to ambulances either provided by MotoTT or amongst the site staff or even the riders. Attendant persons being qualified in first aid is not what I am talking about here. I mean fully equipped ambulances with trained staff capable of delivering an assured standard of emergency aid to a possibly seriously injured rider on the scene with a few minutes.

Well I'm sure if you have an accident at a track day we will all be quite happy to finish the session and let you lie in pain on the side of the track....even if there is trained personal availiable....yeah right....Bollocks to you!

On the subject of stopping on track... I know what I heard and I know what happened as a result. Whether you choose to believe that I really don't care one bit. Every one agrees it's wrong to stop on the track. How you can tell from that video that one of the riders was a marshall I don't know... I can't nor was I even aware of his presence (which surely I should be). What I did see was at least 4 riders stop.... and the chequered flag came out AFTER I went through....as if that matters.

Well unlike you, I do care that you are full of shit and slandering a great organization like MotoTT....and as far as you needing to know exactly what personal is available and where they are every second your at a MotoTT day....BOLLOCKS again!

One thing is clear from this discussion Biggles. You seem incapable of a fair minded discussion without resorting to insult and abuse and threat. If I do see you at a track day I won't be going anywhere near you. You need to be avoided.

You are right about that Mort....one thing is completely clear cut from this discussion......its just you got it wrong as to what it is....It clear cut that you really have no place at MotoTT days and that is simply because your a twat with no idea of what your talking about. As for avoiding me its no skin off my nose...I'm happy to call you a twat here or to your face!

[Mort]

thanks for the reasoned responses..

If the ambos are parked elsewhere then that explains that. On the previous event mentioned, some sessions were run without cover. Lets hope that is history. Thanks for the clarification Quasi and Frosty.... that was all that was needed ... without the hysterics.

If it was only marshalls stopping that time (which was group 2 BTW) then fair enough. But I still maintain that the briefing guy said something to the effect "if you do stop to help a mate, park well out of the way"... which they did. and yes I totally agree... rolling marshalls are the fastest way to get to a down rider.

Morcs.. yes, British trackdays do cost a lot more than here... From about $320 for somewhere like Cadwell through to about $720 for the full track at Brands (which is a rip off)... add to that fuel which is near twice the price and accommodation....so we do very well here for cost that is for sure. One further comparison though... at UK trackdays you don't pay for garages (which I see have come down a lot in price at Taupo and is much more acceptable) and every trackday (that I know of) runs at least 6 sessions in a 3 group x 20 minute format.

Here's a link to the UK trackday calendar for anyone interested http://www.uktrackdays.co.uk/. The full season isn't booked yet though...still winter there. During summer (Mid APR to End Sept) there is a bike trackday almost every day of the week at least one or more circuit within the same driving distance as Auckland to Taupo. Of course the market is much bigger but it shows the huge demand that have been generated by the Trackday firms. Most of these events are fully booked weeks and months in advance.

.... which leads me back to the thread subject. You get more tracktime in a 3 group format. We all have a choice but I'd like to see more 3 group track days. Hopefully the trackday market will expand to accomodate every riders needs.

[Tony.OK]

With the current number of ppl doing trackdays the 3 group format in my view just doesn't cater for the different levels of ability, and also puts more ppl on the track at any given time. That to me makes it more dangerous, particularly on Taupo's main straight where the speed diff is so vast.

If you really want tracktime try doing a test day.

[FROSTY:Me]

An interesting factiod. New Zealand is a small place.
Motorcyclists in NZ are an even smaller group. An even smaller group still are those wishing to stick their necks on the line and organise trackdays.
To be seen winging whining and generally being a pain in the ass to this very very small group can possibly result in a person beeing unwelcolm at events organised by these people.
Something to concider.