Trackdays - 3 groups or 4?

[FROSTY:Me]

I reckon in the interest of safty there should be a approx 115% rule in each group....

Dude Ive spent the last 5 years trying to work out a formula that addresses EXACTLY that issue. Quite honestly I still haven't
Heres the problem mate--And I used to see it all the time.
A guys out there on his gixzxr1 thou for example and with the two straights and the big sweeper hes able to do say 1.50 round taupo.
Trouble is hes holding up the poor sod outriding him in all the corners on his old VFR400 --who on a clean lap can only do 1.50 because he's slower on the straights.
This is where Im hoping specialty trackdays might fit into the existing scene.

[Cajun]

115% isn't very good rule to blanket across whole of trackdays, what about people who first time, etc they gonna be alot slower than everone else, might be a guide/idea for group 1 and 2, but other groups should be who wants to enter.

[Mort]

I think most people who've done a few trackdays know more or less what group they should be in. Basically if you are passing every one on the track you should move up... if you pass no one you should move down. It should therefore average out.

I like the idea of a one or two group trackday for a few reasons.

1. It gives as much tracktime as you want or need.
2. Regardless of what some may say - it can be made affordable.
3. It gives experienced riders time to focus on bike set up or technique etc
4. It can give less experienced riders what they need - more track time.

I hope this works...

[westie]

Mort you should start up your own track days and see who likes/comes to them, using the methods you want.
I wouldn't want to ride in two groups where every corner you could get taken out by a noob or squid. Riders of similar ability should ride together eg race fast, fast, medium, slow. Its proven to work well and cuts down frustration for faster riders.

[koba]

Its proven to work well and cuts down frustration or faster riders.

and slower ones too!

[DEATH_INC.]

Dude Ive spent the last 5 years trying to work out a formula that addresses EXACTLY that issue. Quite honestly I still haven't
Heres the problem mate--And I used to see it all the time.
A guys out there on a ZX10r for example and with the two straights and the big sweeper hes able to do say 1.50 round taupo.
Trouble is hes holding up the poor sod outriding him in all the corners on his old VFR400 --who on a clean lap can only do 1.50 because he's slower on the straights.
This is where Im hoping specialty trackdays might fit into the existing scene.

More the problem of being able to do low 1.40's on a clear track but being held up by the clown on the thou who's only doing 1.50's, but blasts down the straights then hold ya up around the good bits....and ya can't stuff it up the inside of him cause of the rules, or risk going outside cause he can't hold lines either and will run ya off the track....more common of a problem than you think.....BUT how do you fix it? I don't know....
Back to the original question, I prefer the 3 groups with longer sessions....

[FROSTY:Me]

and slower ones too!

Dude apsolutely no question there. Given theres no prizes for most laps etc the guy on the Thou for example isnt doing anything wrong or dangerous as such.
Again its reall really hard to find a formula that works.
One suggestion I always made to "frustrated" riders is to avoid the object of your frustrations.
I spent a bit of time saying to X hey would you mind holding up a couple of seconds and let Y go out in front etc

[sinfull]

I think most people who've done a few trackdays know more or less what group they should be in. Basically if you are passing every one on the track you should move up... if you pass no one you should move down. It should therefore average out.

I like the idea of a one or two group trackday for a few reasons.

1. It gives as much tracktime as you want or need.
2. Regardless of what some may say - it can be made affordable.
3. It gives experienced riders time to focus on bike set up or technique etc
4. It can give less experienced riders what they need - more track time.

I hope this works...

Your always going to get the ones who don't move up because they like the feeling of owning a group and the fear of being owned ! Easier to talk ppl into moving down ? Nah ! Not once they've been owned there's nothing more to lose, only gains from there on !

Mort you should start up your own track days and see who likes/comes to them, using the methods you want.
I wouldn't want to ride in two groups where every corner you could get taken out by a noob or squid. Riders of similar ability should ride together eg race fast, fast, medium, slow. Its proven to work well and cuts down frustration or faster riders.

It does work and work well with 4 groups ! But the original post was about actual time on the track !
Being the unfit fat slob i am, 15 min is usually plenty and i'm ready to get off the track for a break ! But then there is the wait till your called up again sometimes an hour wait if there is an off or something in one of the other 3 groups !
I Know trackday companies HAVE to cater for the new trackday goers, cause thats where the bread and butter is !
But i am a fan of 15 on and 15 off ! I'd put my hand up and help ANYONE, who might like to put their head on the financial chopping block and organise one !

More the problem of being able to do low 1.40's on a clear track but being held up by the clown on the thou who's only doing 1.50's, but blasts down the straights then hold ya up around the good bits....and ya can't stuff it up the inside of him cause of the rules, or risk going outside cause he can't hold lines either and will run ya off the track....more common of a problem than you think.....BUT how do you fix it? I don't know....
Back to the original question, I prefer the 3 groups with longer sessions....

Low 1.40's your into competition times (and should be competing) practise days, race days, the odd invitational track day !
MotoTT do the odd low numbers trackday every now and then, so they can get out on the track themselves !
Your point is valid but thats trackdays ! You just have to keep in mind they're out there to get faster (and try to keep the mist from forming lol) Have a word to em in the pits perhaps and get them to come out BEHIND you and learn your lines, recon most would appriciate it !
Know that at trackdays, if i hear a bike sittin on my arse through the infield etc, i often give a little room so they can slip through, JUST to give chase (obviously faster than me there so i can learn from it). More often than not, if i can pass em again on the str8, i wont, for a few laps anyway lol, If i'm still in touch then, i'll have a go ! But hey, i'm what you'd call a genleman clown !

Even in racing there is always gonna be someone slower and someone faster than you ! Beauty of racing is you should end up on the grid ahead of them and (unless your on a windup toy with all the weight cut out of it) get through T1 ahead, if not ya can always put it up the inside of em !

[Mort]

Good points Bill...

Mort you should start up your own track days and see who likes/comes to them, using the methods you want.
I wouldn't want to ride in two groups where every corner you could get taken out by a noob or squid. Riders of similar ability should ride together eg race fast, fast, medium, slow. Its proven to work well and cuts down frustration or faster riders.

I think you mis-understand westie . The two group suggestion is for Intermediate and fast riders. Not Novices. I would suggest that a novice rider would be happy enough with a 3 or 4 group format. Its about more track time for experienced riders. Its not heaping all riders in to fewer groups. I can see though, that 20 minutes on and 20 minutes off would be hard work all day though but at least the rider has the choice to wait... and in that case an Open track format might be better (But then you really would be mixing abilities there)

The proven "generic" formula is the 3 group format... Again - more track time and less sitting about than a 4 group. I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I don't see why its necessary to split the fast group in to two groups. 3 Groups seems to work fine the world over.

[FROSTY:Me]

More the problem of being able to do low 1.40's on a clear track but being held up by the clown on the thou who's only doing 1.50's, but blasts down the straights then hold ya up around the good bits....and ya can't stuff it up the inside of him cause of the rules, or risk going outside cause he can't hold lines either and will run ya off the track....more common of a problem than you think.....BUT how do you fix it? I don't know....
Back to the original question, I prefer the 3 groups with longer sessions....

Mate again I don't know the sollution within the existing format
Heres the nub of the matter. The guy doing his 1.50's paid his money and is not doing owt wrong in as much as he is riding to his ability level and enjoying what he paid for -ie getting to gun his bike to 200 plus legally and ride round corners at speeds well more than he legally can on the road.
==============================================
MY take on matters
As long as trackdays are set up to cater for a broad range of riders style and ability --and Ill make this clear AS THEY DO AND SHOULD
there will be those less that perfectly satisfied with the speed they were able to do or tha laps they were able to get in. For every "fast" guy theres a slower rider that was frightened by the speed difference.
I feel that to keep as many people as possible happy the 4 group setup is the safest and by default means that the amount of SATISFACTORY track time is greater.

Ill just go back and explain myself
Given that 2 organisations both cap their numbers at the same number
By seperating into 4 groups there are less people on track at any one time.
In principle (not always practice) this means less chance of speed discrepancy between the various riders which again means less chance of multi bike incidents. Keeping in mind one factor in amout of and satisfaction from your track time is that crashes reduce track time. Basicly EVERY crash I allow 5 minutes time cost to the day (it averages out at about that)
Unless you want to be scrapping with your mates then your time with clear track in front of you should be greater therefore the QUALITY of your day should be higher.
That said at the last KB trackday I ran 5 groups for the very first session- the normal 4 as well as a novice group for first timers -this was a 10 minute session. The idea was that any first time trackdayers could get an idea of where they should fit into the other groups without any issue and those with a couple of days under their belt could reshuffle into a better suited group. . It seemed to work well.
Ive run trackdays with both the 4 and 3 group setup and at TAUPO track from my viewpoint--ie Im watching you lot out there not on track. The 4 group system works best for both quality and REAL quantity of tracktime.

You guys n gals can help yourselves too.
If you are frustrated by a rider baulking you why not just do a loop through the pits to let them go? Next time out make sure you start in front or waay behind em.
using Deaths example if mr 1.50 is holding you mr 1.40 up and you loop through the pitsat a cost to you of say 1.2m of tracktime you can then spend the next 10 laps chasing him down

There is another point too The trackday companies are to one degree or another running the days as a commercial proposition.When selling a renewable commodody like trackdays you ALWAYS want the customer to finish up wanting more.

[FROSTY:Me]

All that said as above I do believe that there is now a place in New zealand for specialist track days.
1 or indeed 2 groups but much smaller numbers of riders.
The one Im running is specifically aimed to gauge genuine interest level beyond mere novilty.If the real interest is there I will settle into a 2 group type senario.being labled as race group and fast group. Again given enough entrys the plan then is to go back to it being run like a normal trackday with marshals etc

[DaddyK]

Dude Ive spent the last 5 years trying to work out a formula that addresses EXACTLY that issue. Quite honestly I still haven't
Heres the problem mate--And I used to see it all the time.
A guys out there on a ZX10r for example and with the two straights and the big sweeper hes able to do say 1.50 round taupo.
Trouble is hes holding up the poor sod outriding him in all the corners on his old VFR400 --who on a clean lap can only do 1.50 because he's slower on the straights.
This is where Im hoping specialty trackdays might fit into the existing scene.

OK, Its kinda hard not to think since the ZX10 is referenced, that it is us that you are refering to. I manage 1:38 to 1:40's in group 1 and have to deal with motards that are riding lines off the map and smell like lawnmowers. I deal with it. We go out in group 2, on another ZX10 and 2 up, we ride 1:48 to 1:50's, and we pass people, so we are not the slowest bike out there. We try to get out in front to get a clean track but since all this whinging seems to be somehow based around perhaps our existence, we promise to go out last at the next track day, which we are booked at both 27th and 28th, just so all the people on the amazing 400's can have their way.
We pay our money. We hold our lines. We are fast enough.
My suggestion is try a better bike.

[FROSTY:Me]

OK, Its kinda hard not to think since the ZX10 is referenced, that it is us that you are refering to. I manage 1:38 to 1:40's in group 1 and have to deal with motards that are riding lines off the map and smell like lawnmowers. I deal with it. We go out in group 2, on another ZX10 and 2 up, we ride 1:48 to 1:50's, and we pass people, so we are not the slowest bike out there. We try to get out in front to get a clean track but since all this whinging seems to be somehow based around perhaps our existence, we promise to go out last at the next track day, which we are booked at both 27th and 28th, just so all the people on the amazing 400's can have their way.
We pay our money. We hold our lines. We are fast enough.
My suggestion is try a better bike.

Hehehehe--sorry dude you be paranoid.
I havent been near a track in 6 months. Coulda as easilly have been a gixxer thou or R1 used as example I plucked zx10 from thin air I think cos choppa's on a zx10

[DaddyK]

Hehehehe--sorry dude you be paranoid.
I havent been near a track in 6 months. Coulda as easilly have been a gixxer thou or R1 used as example I plucked zx10 from thin air I think cos choppa's on a zx10

Interesting how your private message seemed a bit nicer than calling us paranoid on the forum within a few minutes of us posting. You do actually go ride dont you?

As I said, we defend the bike we love, the pillioning we do and the hard working people who spend their time trying to organize track days for all of us novices. It irks us that so many experts out there feel the need to whinge about days that are set up for the masses of folks who want and need this outlet because it doesnt speak to their personal condition.

And now, we are actually going to get on one of the 10's we own, and blast up to the Coroglen, 2-up, just as we did yesterday, and will do every chance we can in between track days just to stay on top of the riding.

Long live "Team Crazy".

[FROSTY:Me]

hey Daddy K its all good dude.
Guess you havent been a member here long enough to know that Im one of the "hard working organisers" of track days.

So my comments and questions are from the POV of someone standing in the control box trying to keep EVERYBODY happy.
Just to reiterate for you personally.
My attitude and I feel most likely the attitude of EVERY track day company is that
EVERYBODY has equal right to be on the track and enjoy their experience.
BUT yes the issue of the guy on the 400 being balked in corners by a thou is an issue Ive seen.
Its NOT a blame game its an issue. Thou rider has as much right as 400 rider. One guy has fast corner speed one has fast straightline
Its a matter of a solution that keeps the most people happy whilst also keeping the situation as safe as possible.
I have tried moving mr 400 up a group but there is quite often an ego issue -ie in MED/Fast hes right up there In fast hes an also ran.
Incidently that issue highlights EXACTLY my point about Quality track time
If mr 400 is frustrated and mr thou is frustrated noones havin fun