Moto2 replacing the 250 class in 2011...

[samgab]

What is your opinion on the new Moto2 class which will replace the 250cc class in the MotoGP as of 2011?

The full official regulations for the new class are here:
http://www.fim.ch/sec/documents/f_6127.pdf

Basically:
Technical Regulations:

1. Engine

1.1 4-stroke engines only.
1.2 Engine capacity: maximum 600cc.
1.3 4 cylinders maximum.
1.4 No oval pistons.
1.5 Engines must be normally aspirated. No turbo-charging, no super-charging.
1.6 Engine speed limited to maximum: 16,000 rpm. 4-cylinder engines
15,500 rpm. 3-cylinder engines
15,000 rpm. 2-cylinder engines
An electronic system supplied by the Organisers will be permanently attached to monitor and control
engine speed.
1.7 Pneumatic valve operation is not permitted.
1.8 Inlet and Exhaust valves must be of conventional type (reciprocating poppet valves).
1.9 Variable valve timing or variable valve lift systems are not permitted.
1.10 Only wet-sump type engine lubrication systems are permitted.
1.11 Minimum weight of complete engine with throttle body, dry:
53 kg 4-cylinder
50 kg 3-cylinder
47 kg 2 cylinder

2. Inlet & Fuel System

2.1 Variable-length inlet tract systems are not permitted.
2.2 Only one throttle control valve per cylinder is permitted. No other moving devices are permitted in the
inlet tract before the engine intake valve.
2.3 Throttle bodies will have a maximum internal diameter (must be perfectly circle except for the area of
dent or groove to allow the injector to come out) at engine side out-let of:
42 mm for 4-cylinder
48 mm for 3-cylinder
59 mm for 2-cylinder
2.4 Fuel injectors will be restricted to a defined type (tba, based on cost).
2.5 Fuel pressure must not exceed 5.0 bar.
2.6 No artificial cooling of intake air or fuel.
2.7 Only air or air/fuel mixture is permitted in the induction tract and combustion chamber.
2.8 No direct fuel injection into the cylinder/head/combustion chamber.
2.9 Fuel specification will be for standard unleaded fuel (commercially available EU-compliant “pump fuel”).

3. Exhaust system

3.1 Variable length exhaust systems are not permitted.
3.2 Noise limit will be a maximum of 120 dB/A, measured in a static test.


4. Transmission

4.1 A maximum of 6 gearbox speeds is permitted.
4.2 A maximum of 3 alternate gear ratios for each gearbox speed, and 2 alternate ratios for the primary
drive gear is permitted. Teams will be required to declare the gearbox ratios for each gear used at the
beginning of the season.
4.3 Electro-mechanical or electro-hydraulic clutch actuating systems are not permitted.

5. Ignition, Electronics & Data-Logging

5.1 Data logger system will be supplied by the series Organizer.
5.2 Only the ECU/fuel injection control units supplied by the series Organiser are allowed to be fitted
to the motorcycle. Electronic control units include the timing transponder, engine RPM control,
and datalogger systems. No other electronic control or datalogging systems will be allowed on the
motorcycle. The price of ECU unit made by each engine manufacturer must be equal to or less than
JPY75,000 (about Euro650).

6. Chassis

6.1 Chassis will be a prototype, the design and construction of which is free within the constraints of the
FIM Grand Prix Technical Regulations. The frame, swing-arm, fuel tank, seat and cowling are
forbidden to use from a non-prototype as series production road-going motorcycle.
6.2 Minimum Total Weight: 135kg for 4-cylinder
130kg for 3-cylinder
125kg for 2-cylinder
6.3 No carbon brake discs.

7. Wheels & Tyres

7.1 No carbon composite wheels.
7.2 The maximum permitted wheel rim width is: Front 4.00”
Rear 6.00” or 6.25”
7.3 The only permitted wheel rim diameter is: Front 17”
Rear 17”
7.4 The number of slick tyres allocated to each rider per event will be controlled.

8. Materials & Construction

8.1 Construction materials will be limited to exclude expensive “non-conventional” materials and
manufacturing methods (a list will be issued).
8.2 The following components must be made from iron-based alloys:
Valve springs, camshafts, crankshafts, connecting rods, piston pins, brake discs.
8.3 Engine crankcases and cylinder heads must be made from cast aluminium alloys.
8.4 Pistons must be made from an aluminium alloy.

9. General

9.1 Number of machines: the team can scrutineer only one motorcycle per rider.
9.2 Number of engines: a maximum of 2 complete engines per rider is permitted at any event. Teams will
be required to register engine serial numbers at Technical Control on the day before the first practice.
9.3 Apart from the above regulations, all other construction criteria, dimensions and specifications are as
per the FIM Grand Prix Regulations.
9.4 The engine (excluding exhaust, throttle bodies and ECU) used in a race is available to be purchased
by another competitor in the same race for a fixed price of €20,000 (Euro). Such purchase request
must be made in writing to Race Direction within the protest period, that is within 60 minutes after the
official end of the race. The transaction and delivery will be completed immediately at the end of the
60 minute protest period and will be underwritten by IRTA. Teams refusing to sell when presented
with a valid request will be disqualified.

[samgab]

Sounds to me like there will suddenly be an official class that bikes like the CBR600RR, GSX-R600, YZF-R6, and ZX-6R will fit right into.
But it will miss out bikes like the Duke and the Triumph.

I wonder if any new bike engines will flow through from this race scene, or not. Like a new Honda V4 600 would be cool...

[Ivan]

rules are crap.

Its the Moto GP for fuck sake the elite series why run it as a club series?

250 GP owns.

Why allow an engine to be sold if you cant keep up thats your problem tuff shit solve it or go home.

I think the series is going to fall over to be honest riders are not going to want to ride in a series like this World Superbikes gonna become huge in 2012

[wbks]

Not an expert in MotoGP but why the fuck make bikes of smaller capacity rev lower than MotoGP class bikes? And make Pneumatic illegal, limit carb size and limit all other kinds of crap? I thought MotoGP is supposed to be the pinnacle of road racing motorcycle design?

[samgab]

Not an expert in MotoGP but why the fuck make bikes of smaller capacity rev lower than MotoGP class bikes? And make Pneumatic illegal, limit carb size and limit all other kinds of crap? I thought MotoGP is supposed to be the pinnacle of road racing motorcycle design?

Well, there will still be the proper MotoGP, with the 800cc bikes, but this is to replace the 250cc class. So, if I understand correctly, there will be 125 2-strokes, 600 4-strokes, and the MotoGP class, the true kings.

I guess they need a lot of rules in place to prevent the 600's from being as fast and as good as the 800cc MotoGP class.

[wbks]

Well, there will still be the proper MotoGP, with the 800cc bikes, but this is to replace the 250cc class. So, if I understand correctly, there will be 125 2-strokes, 600 4-strokes, and the MotoGP class, the true kings.

Yes, but generally speaking (commercial interests aside), aren't each of those classes supposed to be pushing the boundaries for that capacity? 55ps from a 125 is impressive... 220+ from an 800 is impressive, but I'm not expecting those 600's to be anything special
I see you've edited that (or i didn't see it before) but I guess that could be it... 200cc could make a huge difference at that level anyway but they'd still be a lot faster than the current 250's, so...

[samgab]

Why allow an engine to be sold if you cant keep up thats your problem

I think they have the bit about having to sell the engine after the race if a request is made by another team, so that the other team can then pull it apart and make sure that the team they bought the engine from wasn't cheating in any way.

[lostinflyz]

I think they have the bit about having to sell the engine after the race if a request is made by another team, so that the other team can then pull it apart and make sure that the team they bought the engine from wasn't cheating in any way.

its a claiming rule so that teams dont go off and spend a couple of million making a 180+ odd 600 engine. basically it means you will run a stock engine because if you uprate your engine at all everyone else will end up with one.

they replaced the class to lower costs. at the moment a 250 fatory bike is like 5 or 6 million to LEASE for a year. they are aiming for these bikes to be only a few hundred grand i think.

the only good thing i can see to it is alot of different people making bikes (all with very similar if not the same engine) so there be some interest things. tech 3 has said they'll do a bike. as has bimota and theres a number of rumours alot of other famous names from racings past may show up as well. thats the upside

[gammaguy]

rules are crap.

Its the Moto GP for fuck sake the elite series why run it as a club series?

250 GP owns.

Why allow an engine to be sold if you cant keep up thats your problem tuff shit solve it or go home.

I think the series is going to fall over to be honest riders are not going to want to ride in a series like this World Superbikes gonna become huge in 2012

absolutely right.

they should just re name it Moto Production,forget the idea of it being a leading edge race series where brave new ideas are developed and raced,and merge it with WSBK.

or better still,forget about it altogether(like Kawasaki and others already have)
Barry Sheene,for one,will be turning in his grave.

[James Deuce]

MotoGP is run by an idiot who hasn't quite cottoned on to the difference between the people who are interested in car racing and the people who are interested in motorcycle racing.

The Moto2 class is going to look pretty stupid when Supersport bikes lap at similar speeds. MotoGP is a purist form of racing, the best of the best. It isn't saloon car racing.

The 250GP bikes often provide the best racing of the weekend, and the fact that I can't go and buy anything like it to ride on the road makes it even more exciting IMO. The 600s are going to suffer from inevitable comparison with Supersport.

[FROSTY:Me]

Ya know I don't agree with you lot. ok the parts made of unobtanium wont be able to be used but those teams as you say have million dollar budgets. I suspect they are gonna find ways to extract better handling and more HP from the bikes.
This in turn will inevitably trickle down to the 600 production based class.
I've seen it over the years --what one year is cutting edge next year is on most race bikes and the next is on production bikes. If the idea's a dudd then it dissapears.

[wbks]

Like Pneumatic valve control? Carbon Brake Disks? V4's?
Its MotoGP - The pinnacle of bike development (and riding)... Not the pinnacle of lower cost racing
If this was re-producing 250IL4's for the 125 class and they were going to start producing them for the road again, I would be all for it though.

[samgab]

I can't understand this part:
"Chassis will be a prototype, the design and construction of which is free within the constraints of the FIM Grand Prix Technical Regulations. The frame, swing-arm, fuel tank, seat and cowling are forbidden to use from a non-prototype as series production road-going motorcycle."

It's translated from - French, I think.
Anyway, are they saying that road production frames CANNOT be used?
That the frames/chassis used must be prototypes that are not in mass production?
In which case they can't just throw a mildly modified CBR600RR in to compete.
Is that to prevent privateers from entering?

[Racin Jason]

Sounds to me like there will suddenly be an official class that bikes like the CBR600RR, GSX-R600, YZF-R6, and ZX-6R will fit right into.
But it will miss out bikes like the Duke and the Triumph.

I wonder if any new bike engines will flow through from this race scene, or not. Like a new Honda V4 600 would be cool...

It says in the chassis regs that using production frames swingarms etc is forbidden. So almost the entire bike - frame, engine, etc will pretty much be a prototype. Like motoGP 800s but with tighter rules for cost cutting.

MotoGP is run by an idiot who hasn't quite cottoned on to the difference between the people who are interested in car racing and the people who are interested in motorcycle racing.

The Moto2 class is going to look pretty stupid when Supersport bikes lap at similar speeds. MotoGP is a purist form of racing, the best of the best. It isn't saloon car racing.

The 250GP bikes often provide the best racing of the weekend, and the fact that I can't go and buy anything like it to ride on the road makes it even more exciting IMO. The 600s are going to suffer from inevitable comparison with Supersport.

The 250cc is the best racing, and i believe the 600s will be even better. The fact that every motorcycle will be a prototype will make them exotic in the chassis depart and completly unatainable.
Everyone knows that in racing a good chassis setup is much more important that horsepower. Look at Formula 1 - It has the bigest rules book of almost any motorsport and they still get faster every year. Ferrari suplies other teams with current engines and still whips there asses.

Which leads us to the money factor. Giving too much freedom of design is slowly killing top level motorsport throughout the world. Costs are getting higher faster that inflation. Sure there is always plently of drivers/ riders willing to pay their way but the manufactures are feeling the pinch. Unless more steps like this 600cc class are made It will only get worse.

Remember its the Elite Racers that make up championship level racing. Not their machines. If you want to be the best, you have to race against the best. The best will not be found in supersport.(IMO)

[James Deuce]

The 250cc is the best racing, and i believe the 600s will be even better. The fact that every motorcycle will be a prototype will make them exotic in the chassis depart and completly unatainable.

Absolutely not. Seen it a million times over the years. Because I'm old.

"Prototype" classes with sealed engines always fail spectacularly. There will be no link to sales, no filter down, and because of the that the manufacturers won't be interested at all. Aprilia and Gilera (the Gilera is an Aprilia, but Piaggio have naming rights) are in 250s and 125s because becaue it sells scooters.

Moto2 going to end up a Honda spec class, as it looks like they have won the engine building contract. Suzuki aren't going to put their name on a prototype chassis with a Honda engine (even if it is badged Moto2), so money for this class is going to come entirely from 3rd party sponsorship that motorcycling has always struggled to find because the people who like motorcycle racing are interested in the racing not the spectacle, and a huge percentage of the spectators, even Harley (that was joke, stop throwing things Screaming Eagle purchasers!) riders, can relate to the experience of riding a motorcycle. A lot of people with real money go to F1 races for the chicks, the Champagne, and to be seen.

The other manufacturers will invest in Supersport, a class that relates directly to sales (remember, there's a recession on) and can be developed from something you find on a show room floor, and most of all maintain brand identity, without having to spend millions on chassis development (there's a recession on remember). So even though the unit cost of a Supersport bike might be higher, the ROI and the likelihood of name sponsors with real money is far higher.

The car analogy doesn't fit. Dallara and Lola basically tied down chassis supply for the F1 support classes and Hart did engine supply for a long time. Brands that have no meaning to people at all and didn't attract enough sponsorship to keep the classes solvent. F1 support races aren't open wheeler feeder classes anymore. They're separate championships run on a one make basis with the vehicles prepped by one manufacturer. The teams are based around sponsorship deals.

That model is a mistake for MotoGP. It will lead to the death of the supporting feeder classes and force people into the Supersport-Superbike route to get to MotoGP. Only time will tell, but I think Moto2 is a mistake that will have long ranging implications for the sport and motorcycling in general.