Pro-Twin discussion

[Billy]

Yes 250 proddy was great but we dont appear to have any low cost 250s any more that are suitable for racing. Racing with stock damper rod ''wallow sticks'' Youve got to be nuts. Times have moved on and we cannot live in the past.

And yet in another thread you tell us how Karl only changed the springs and made NO damper mods,Its also worth noting at this stage Steve Wood managed to run in the top 3 at the Manfeild round of the nationals last year in F3 on an SV with a standard rear shock achieving laptimes in the 1.13s bracket,The very same meeting Karl Morgan achieved 1.14s on his pro twin machine with the above mentioned front end.The point being if its the same for everybody then the best rider will win and everybody has the same opportunity for a lot less cost.In theory more riders will be eager to give it a go if theyve got as good a bike as the rest without spending $20,000.00 plus

[Robert Taylor]

And yet in another thread you tell us how Karl only changed the springs and made NO damper mods,Its also worth noting at this stage Steve Wood managed to run in the top 3 at the Manfeild round of the nationals last year in F3 on an SV with a standard rear shock achieving laptimes in the 1.13s bracket,The very same meeting Karl Morgan achieved 1.14s on his pro twin machine with the above mentioned front end.The point being if its the same for everybody then the best rider will win and everybody has the same opportunity for a lot less cost.In theory more riders will be eager to give it a go if theyve got as good a bike as the rest without spending $20,000.00 plus

You can believe what makes you comfortable but if you had 2 bikes identical in every way and the same rider, one bike has emulators and the other doesnt. Its a no brainer which one will lap faster and feel more secure. Point of fact nearly every rider is a part timer in NZ and therefore inconsistencies arise compared to proffessional riders who can lap at the same speed every lap. ( And somewhat faster )Thats why you happily cited the above without taking stock of what I have just said.
Suspension is one of the most cost effective mods, fact.

[White trash]

Suspension is one of the most cost effective mods, fact.

And tyres. Let's not forget them little puppies

[FROSTY:Me]

Robert- Ill apologise in advance here if this apears to be a personal attack -IT ISNT
Here exactly is where the whole pro twins debacle began.
People with a commercial interest. or a bike built to F3 spec --(ie thier bike already had PC and hot pipe and emmulators etc) having way too much influence on how the class rules were set up.

It left me with a real sense of deja vu to hear some of the comments made at the first meeting (to discuss class rules) at Ruapuna back in jan 07 The Deja Vu was the beginning of the end for 250 proddie when the nsr250 honda's were allowed gearing changes, Thin end of the wedge it was -next came slicks allowed because a tyre brand was "virtually' a slick anyway and so on it went.
Im only too well aware that yes two stroke 250's did stop coming in new but the class was stuffed up before that happened.
Again I just dont understand why NZ hasn't learned from overseas experiences.

2 years ago before I smacked myself around at Taupo I was passionately pushing this exact same barrow.

pro twins rules.
1) NO engine modification allowed,
2)no power commanders or other injection tuning devices
2) Exhaust system to be factory stock back to but not including muffler.
3) bodywork to be factory available for that make/model or Direct replicas thereof both front and rear.-specifically you CAN use faired SV fairings if your SV was purchased as a naked ditto the ER and Hyusung. also tail fairings could be a one piece allowing with the rear seat as a cast part of it.
4)gearing to remain factory 15/45 not the naked optional 15/44
5) bike not to exceed 75hp
6) brakes to be factory master cylinder/lines and calipers for that model. Pad choice is open.
7) Front suspension to remain in factory FORM internally and externally so allowing spring /oil damping rod changes/mods and emmulators--specifically excluding use of cartredge type aftermarket components.
8) Rear suspension -Here the jurys out. --ILL explain why.
My initial reaction is -The rear should remain factory stock
Then I was reminded that theres some really neat stuff can be done inside even the factory ER or SV shock to improve its performance dramatically.Invisible to the outside world but dramatic in effect.
So my thinking now is to allow a specific range of aftermarket alternatives which are down the bottom end of the price scale.
I thought about a $$ limit but that might mean some smartalec could buy a second hand really trick shock from a yank or pom mini twins racer and we're back to square 1--ie --OHH well if he's allowed it then why can't I buy a new one etc etc.
9) footpegs,hanger brackets,handlebars can be replaced with lower cost alternatives but must closely resemble factory equipment
10) Engine crankcase covers may be replaced with alternatives with crash protection,also crash bungs are permitted.
11) HOPEFULLY -control tyres -as Ive outlined earlier the idea being that every year the tender gets offered to the major brands to be pro twins tyre supplier --they get the sales but in exchange the price is heavilly discounted.
12) front and rear subframes may be replaced provided there is no weight advantage.

[Billy]

You can believe what makes you comfortable but if you had 2 bikes identical in every way and the same rider, one bike has emulators and the other doesnt. Its a no brainer which one will lap faster and feel more secure. Point of fact nearly every rider is a part timer in NZ and therefore inconsistencies arise compared to proffessional riders who can lap at the same speed every lap. ( And somewhat faster )Thats why you happily cited the above without taking stock of what I have just said.
Suspension is one of the most cost effective mods, fact.

Nobody has said a bike with emulators would not handle any better or make the tyres last longer.What is being stated is We need a low cost production based class to run at National level and Pro Twins should have been it.The fact is I know of 4 riders who were keen to do Pro Twins until they saw the rules and another three who have built bikes to suit the rules and had no budget left to compete with at club level let alone National.Fact,If racing stays as expensive as it presently there will be less and less people interested in attempting it at National level.What is being applied now is NOT working and if we continue to do what we are doing,We will always have what weve got.

[White trash]

Some very good debate going on here indeed.

The fact is, however, that the rules as they currently stand will never be tightened further to bring them back to closer to stock bikes. It would mean that the current field of bikes are effectively illeagal and eligible for only F3, where they're far from competitive.

I'm not convinced that the rules are wrong either. I mean a mate bought Karls championship winning bike from 08 for 11K I think. That's fucken cheap really for a bike that can run at the front all day. Once purchased, the running costs are comparitively cheap. I mean, tyres last for ever, servicing is sweet FA, and you'll have a hell of alot of fun.

[FROSTY:Me]

The fact is, however, that the rules as they currently stand will never be tightened further to bring them back to closer to stock bikes. It would mean that the current field of bikes are effectively illeagal and eligible for only F3, where they're far from competitive.

I dont agree dude. In most cases taking a current PT bike and making it fit the rules I outlined wouldnt be a major cost at all or they could go down the F3 route
Actually that raises the other bugbear.Two classes on track same time and the top PT bikes are up there lapping at the top ten lap times for F3 and looking like F3 bikes to the outside world.
Surely the look and feel of PT needs to be different to F3

[Billy]

Some very good debate going on here indeed.

The fact is, however, that the rules as they currently stand will never be tightened further to bring them back to closer to stock bikes. It would mean that the current field of bikes are effectively illeagal and eligible for only F3, where they're far from competitive.

I'm not convinced that the rules are wrong either. I mean a mate bought Karls championship winning bike from 08 for 11K I think. That's fucken cheap really for a bike that can run at the front all day. Once purchased, the running costs are comparitively cheap. I mean, tyres last for ever, servicing is sweet FA, and you'll have a hell of alot of fun.

Yip,The top paragraph is 100% correct,However where the rules as they are falter is in the fact ,There will always be someone like Sam who will want to win so much ,He will go that extra mile and spend every cent he earns to maximise his chances of winning and if it costs him $25,000.00 then so be it and that is offputting to a huge amount of competitors and so they stick with their 20yr old 400 and stay club racing instead of moving up.Having said all that it doesnt necessarily mean Im right,I just see that whats happening now is not working and Ive seen what does

[FROSTY:Me]

wonder what would happen if someone started a "class within a class"
Summat like -PT proddy.
Two ways it could go--either further water down the tallent pool or get PT back on track
As they say --proof of the puddings in the eating. Unless Im very much mistaken not too many eating the PT pudding as it stands

[Robert Taylor]

Robert- Ill apologise in advance here if this apears to be a personal attack -IT ISNT
Here exactly is where the whole pro twins debacle began.
People with a commercial interest. or a bike built to F3 spec --(ie thier bike already had PC and hot pipe and emmulators etc) having way too much influence on how the class rules were set up.

It left me with a real sense of deja vu to hear some of the comments made at the first meeting (to discuss class rules) at Ruapuna back in jan 07 The Deja Vu was the beginning of the end for 250 proddie when the nsr250 honda's were allowed gearing changes, Thin end of the wedge it was -next came slicks allowed because a tyre brand was "virtually' a slick anyway and so on it went.
Im only too well aware that yes two stroke 250's did stop coming in new but the class was stuffed up before that happened.
Again I just dont understand why NZ hasn't learned from overseas experiences.

2 years ago before I smacked myself around at Taupo I was passionately pushing this exact same barrow.

pro twins rules.
1) NO engine modification allowed,
2)no power commanders or other injection tuning devices
2) Exhaust system to be factory stock back to but not including muffler.
3) bodywork to be factory available for that make/model or fibreglass replicas thereof -specifically you CAN use faired SV fairings if your SV was purchased as a naked ditto the ER and Hyusung.
4)gearing to remain factory 15/45 not the naked optional 15/44
5) bike not to exceed 75hp
6) brakes to be factory master cylinder/lines and calipers for that model. Pad choice is open.
7) Front suspension to remain in factory FORM internally and externally so allowing spring /oil damping rod changes/mods and emmulators--specifically excluding use of cartredge type aftermarket components.
8) Rear suspension -Here the jurys out. --ILL explain why.
My initial reaction is -The rear should remain factory stock
Then I was reminded that theres some really neat stuff can be done inside even the factory ER or SV shock to improve its performance dramatically.Invisible to the outside world but dramatic in effect.
So my thinking now is to allow a specific range of aftermarket alternatives which are down the bottom end of the price scale.
I thought about a $$ limit but that might mean some smartalec could buy a second hand really trick shock from a yank or pom mini twins racer and we're back to square 1--ie --OHH well if he's allowed it then why can't I buy a new one etc etc.
9) footpegs,hanger brackets,handlebars can be replaced with lower cost alternatives but must closely resemble factory equipment
10) Engine crankcase covers may be replaced with alternatives with crash protection,also crash bungs are permitted.
11) HOPEFULLY -control tyres -as Ive outlined earlier the idea being that every year the tender gets offered to the major brands to be pro twins tyre supplier --they get the sales but in exchange the price is heavilly discounted.
12) front and rear subframes may be replaced provided there is no weight advantage.

No offence taken whatsoever, you have some very valid points. A word about shock prices, like everything imported ( and that includes oem, check out oem shock prices, why would you? ) pricing has gone up significantly because our exchange rate has gone west.
$1300 ( as per your example figure ) would about get you a new single tube emulsion shock that very much turns into a milkshake after several laps on the bumpiest courses. There are cheap shocks on the market ( I will sensibly resist naming them ) but at the risk of being vilified they do little better than fill the gap between centres.
I have been following with interest the new Race Tech shocks, undoubtedly they work pretty well as Paul Thede is a clever guy. But they are low volume compared to the likes of what other quality manufacturers such as Ohlins and WP can spit out. Their fully adjustable race shock ( they do one for SV650 ) would on current exchange rates cost a purchaser about $3400 plus freight, clearance charges and gst. So at todays exchange rates they are very much a non starter. Its also a bit of a wake up call for me because over the years I have custom built many shocks and havent charged the true time.
What is also often overlooked ( and Frosty you in effect eluded to it ) is that there is a very strong second hand market for quality shocks, as Ohlins make up the numbers more so they filter through second hand. The number of competitors who have been able to purchase good secondhand shocks is a significant number.

[FROSTY:Me]

Actually suspension is the one area Im not so passionate to pursue.
Im confident there will be a means available to cap the spending there.
Im more concerned about all the other stuff deemed "essential" for PT bikes.
Im sorry again for sounding like an old scratched record but why not dig out the 250 proddy rules and run PT by those rules--the old origonal rules not the watered down version.

[svr]

Unfortunately, I think ProTwins has missed the boat.
Forget the technical arguments, and here the comparison with 250 proddy (of the golden years) is entirely valid - the class should APPEAR to prospective riders in quite a specific way, i.e. that you can buy a bike that requires minimal prep and cost but is as good as anybody elses.
When I started roadracing in 1990 250 production was that class. The bikes weren't perfect to ride, and people cheated , but it attracted, produced (and retained) lots of good racers. Racers didn't require a `team' around them, they just wanted to race and have a crack at the established guns.
In terms of that formula, 650 production would be acceptable, and closer to 250 production than pro-twins. I agree however that you can't turn back the clock, and the best currently available producton technology should be taken advantage of, so 600 production would be the logical class.
What we need right now is full grids, right?

[oyster]

Robert, thanks for your understanding of my situation. Much appreciated. You know what I'm working on: "Safe Fun Fair" and bums on seats. For now and the future.

Read how Wayne describes my son's bike. Lost cost and effective. It's not unique, there are quite a few PT in the south built just the same way.
Young Will montgomery, 16 and still at school. Spends $1800 at Turners auctions for an ER6. With a bit of help straightens it, buys a rear shock, gets a muffler made by a neighbor and off he goes with his savings to do the south island national rounds. Learns heaps, and a final reward, a '42 around Ruapuna on a low powered (about 8hp down) bike. Is that not success?
What is everyone moaning about? While all are saying it can't be done, isn't it actually BEING DONE by Will and co?

The rules are pretty good. With my son's bike, I sure am glad they allow suspension upgrades. It's saving us HEAPS of money,(it keeps those fabulous Continentals LIKE NEW) plus the bike is safer, AND it allows him to learn about setup, an absolutely essential stepping stone before he goes (if he goes) to 600SP.

The only tricky bit with the rules is part about homologated parts. This means if you have an "N" model you're stuck with all the basic parts for THAT MODEL only. So you can't fit later brakes, earlier wheels (for your wets) etc etc. I think this needs a look at. But CAREFULLY otherwise it'll become a chequebook race everytime a new model comes out with improved this and that etc.