Technical question

[Robert Taylor]

No use looking or asking on the internet then?

Textbook material that will give you the answers AT LENGTH are to be found on other forms of internet i.e not this forum. You are effectively asking some poor sod to recite at considerable length because you havent been bothered looking for yourself.
Shaun gave you the best answer, as a prolific reader he would have done his own study, why dont you follow his example.

[GSVR]

With suspension.....Come into a corner on the front brakes, nose down, Steeper steering angle, tip in quicker than without front suspension. Gas on at the apex, rear down front up bike naturally stands upright.....Would be quicker with suspension in my mind....

I would tend to agree with this but I also mentioned the level of grip as this too plays a part I'm thinking.

The closest thing I can think off in the real world (as opposed to my imaginery senario) is longtrack and solo speedway. These bikes have no rear suspension and minimal front suspension and the fastest way to get around the track seems to be in a constant drift.

The pitching of the bike would be of (dare I say it) obvious help at transfering weight to the back of the bike under acceleration but you can have to much of a good thing and this would obviously have an effect on how hard the bike could accelerate under conditions where theres more than enough grip.

Examples of this would be dirtbikes that pitch a large amount to transfer weight back and forth so the wheel that is doing the work has the most weight on it. Or a Fast roadbike being drag raced that has the front forks strapped so as to stop the front end pitching up. These bikes go considerably faster when strapped.

So going back to may first (imaginery senario) post the suspension doesnt have to perform its primary role of absorbing bumps and deviations in the track surface. I made my question this way as I only wanted people to concentrate on the other roles the suspension performs.

I also only used the word "Track" and not circuit as this left the question open for someone to talk about which bike might win a drag race or talk about where/when the bike with suspension may have an advantage.

The whole purpose of the thread was to have some interesting discussion and get some fresh ideas but looking at the replys its been a bit of a disapointment.

Sorry to everyone for asking a stupid question.

Youve gotta wonder Poos! Pitch forward under braking changes trail and helps to further initiate turn in. Pitch rearwards under power allows the tyre to ''bite the track'' harder and minimise wheel spin. Part of the function of suspension is to allow pitch which helps steering. Little wonder that a mountain bike with suspension can turn tighter than a pushbike without.
Gary, do everyone a favour, dust off your wallet and go and buy textbooks re the subject, or visit the local library.
I think also that bike manufacturers have the basic physics worked out.

Who would have thought it. If anyone but an expert had told me that a mountain bike with suspension could turn tighter than a pushbike without I would have laughed. I wonder how much tighter an Ohlins equipped mountain would be able to turn!

To hell with it I'm laughing anyway.

[GSVR]

Textbook material that will give you the answers AT LENGTH are to be found on other forms of internet i.e not this forum. You are effectively asking some poor sod to recite at considerable length because you havent been bothered looking for yourself.
Shaun gave you the best answer, as a prolific reader he would have done his own study, why dont you follow his example.

You assume to much Robert. I'll try and study harder!

[Shaun]

You assume to much Robert. I'll try and study harder!

He can do! But at least he spends the time to try and help on here with silly questions fom some people

[Robert Taylor]

I would tend to agree with this but I also mentioned the level of grip as this too plays a part I'm thinking.

The closest thing I can think off in the real world (as opposed to my imaginery senario) is longtrack and solo speedway. These bikes have no rear suspension and minimal front suspension and the fastest way to get around the track seems to be in a constant drift.

The pitching of the bike would be of (dare I say it) obvious help at transfering weight to the back of the bike under acceleration but you can have to much of a good thing and this would obviously have an effect on how hard the bike could accelerate under conditions where theres more than enough grip.

Examples of this would be dirtbikes that pitch a large amount to transfer weight back and forth so the wheel that is doing the work has the most weight on it. Or a Fast roadbike being drag raced that has the front forks strapped so as to stop the front end pitching up. These bikes go considerably faster when strapped.

So going back to may first (imaginery senario) post the suspension doesnt have to perform its primary role of absorbing bumps and deviations in the track surface. I made my question this way as I only wanted people to concentrate on the other roles the suspension performs.

I also only used the word "Track" and not circuit as this left the question open for someone to talk about which bike might win a drag race or talk about where/when the bike with suspension may have an advantage.

The whole purpose of the thread was to have some interesting discussion and get some fresh ideas but looking at the replys its been a bit of a disapointment.

Sorry to everyone for asking a stupid question.



Who would have thought it. If anyone but an expert had told me that a mountain bike with suspension could turn tighter than a pushbike without I would have laughed. I wonder how much tighter an Ohlins equipped mountain would be able to turn!

To hell with it I'm laughing anyway.

Everyone else is laughing as well, but not with you.

[GSVR]

He can do! But at least he spends the time to try and help on here with silly questions fom some people

I have a great deal of respect for Robert and what he does.

[GSVR]

Everyone else is laughing as well, but not with you.

Your assuming your the spokesman for everyone?

[Robert Taylor]

Your assuming your the spokesman for everyone?

Every one person that asks sensible questions that arent ''loaded'' or twisted to suit a perverse pleasure in winding people up yes. I thank Shaun for expressing that I take the time to answer many questions, many of them indeed stupid. If anyone deliberately sets out to act like a ''cock'' then I guess there will be many people laughing at that person.
There is proof enough that your question was ''silly'' by some of the immediate answers.

[MSTRS:Me]

A racetrack is built that is flat. I don't mean smooth I mean perfectly flat without the slighest hint of a bump or elevation change. If someone was to lose a hair off their head it would create a bump. Get the idea.

Now two identical bikes (apart from one difference) are made. One has suspension and one doesn't.
Which bike would technically be able to be ridden the around this racetrack the quickest.
Or to put it another way which bike could be made to go the fastest assuming changes could be made but one bike will always have no springs or dampening.

To look at this another way does the forward and rearward pitching of a bike help it to go any faster? How does the level of grip effect things in this case?

I also only used the word "Track" and not circuit ...

Forgive us our assumption that you were not talking about a drag strip.

[GSVR]

Forgive us our assumption that you were not talking about a drag strip.

Oh no I've been sprung (excuse the pun). Sorry about that.

I understand why you asked about the front wheel staying on the ground I think. But when I said yes it had too couldn't figure out what "theres your answer" meant.

[GSVR]

Every one person that asks sensible questions that arent ''loaded'' or twisted to suit a perverse pleasure in winding people up yes. I thank Shaun for expressing that I take the time to answer many questions, many of them indeed stupid. If anyone deliberately sets out to act like a ''cock'' then I guess there will be many people laughing at that person.
There is proof enough that your question was ''silly'' by some of the immediate answers.

When I see a silly thread I don't even bother to post on it. Perhaps you could explain why you feel compelled to do the opposite?

Please feel free "not to post" as its not compulsory !

[GSVR]

With suspension.....Come into a corner on the front brakes, nose down, Steeper steering angle, tip in quicker than without front suspension. Gas on at the apex, rear down front up bike naturally stands upright.....Would be quicker with suspension in my mind....

I would tend to agree with this but I also mentioned the level of grip as this too plays a part I'm thinking.

The closest thing I can think off in the real world (as opposed to my imaginery senario) is longtrack and solo speedway. These bikes have no rear suspension and minimal front suspension and the fastest way to get around the track seems to be in a constant drift.

The pitching of the bike would be of (dare I say it) obvious help at transfering weight to the back of the bike under acceleration but you can have to much of a good thing and this would obviously have an effect on how hard the bike could accelerate under conditions where theres more than enough grip.

Examples of this would be dirtbikes that pitch a large amount to transfer weight back and forth so the wheel that is doing the work has the most weight on it. Or a Fast roadbike being drag raced that has the front forks strapped so as to stop the front end pitching up. These bikes go considerably faster when strapped.

So going back to may first (imaginery senario) post the suspension doesnt have to perform its primary role of absorbing bumps and deviations in the track surface. I made my question this way as I only wanted people to concentrate on the other roles the suspension performs.

I also only used the word "Track" and not circuit as this left the question open for someone to talk about which bike might win a drag race or talk about where/when the bike with suspension may have an advantage.

The whole purpose of the thread was to have some interesting discussion and get some fresh ideas but looking at the replys its been a bit of a disapointment.

Some standard rake and trail figures for roadbikes:

SV650 Rake 24.8 degrees Trail 100mm
GSX600 Katana Rake 24 degrees Trail 96mm
K9GSXR1000 Rake 23.8 Trail 98.3mm

[MSTRS:Me]

... solo speedway. These bikes have no rear suspension and minimal front suspension and the fastest way to get around the track seems to be in a constant drift.

Not necessarily. I'm assuming that the almost vertical front forks are to help with stability when tipped in with the front turned out?

[GSVR]

Yeah that looks berserk. Like the front suspension.

I don't know the rules for these bikes and haven't seen any for a while but ASSUMED that the rules didn't allow rear suspension.

A speedway sidechair builder told me that some places overseas don't allow rear suspension on their sidechairs. Could research it but too lazy.

[MSTRS:Me]

Ah, but side chairs would be different again.