New Zealand to dump the Queen and become republic?

[Wolf]

I have no proplem with republic, but this flag thing pisses me off.
What is being proposed by some wingnuts is a silver fern on a black background. Firstly, I'll think you'll find the NZRFU has a copyright on that and secondly (and more importantly), what sort of fucking country has a black flag!!! The other proposals I saw looked more like trademarks.

BTW - The Welsh language is Celtic, Cornwall is part of England and the Isle of Man is not. As for "English tyranny" you obviously have not the first clue of the issues, otherwise you would not have made such an ignorant and inflammatory remark.

Well, this "wingnut" is not decided on any particular design for the flag as yet - just so long as it does not include that anti-Celtic abomination, the "Union Jack" - the St George Cross (England's emblem) superimposed OVER the Scots and Irish crosses. Aside from that issue, it is high time NZ had it's own identity instead of a "vassal's banner" such as our current flag is.

As to Cornwall being part of England - I shall say only that I don't have the monopoly on "ignorant and inflammatory remarks" but then I should expect nothing less from one who wants to crush the Scots. (PT alert)

It does not surprise me at all that a) our anthem is bigotted jingoist shyte and b) it is not sung in its full "glory" these days on the grounds that half of Dunedin would march on Parliament tomorrow (and our family would happily supply the pitchforks) - I think that in addition to the flag, we need to get rid of the anthem (which will happily occur when we become a republic)

Cymraeg ("Welsh") and Kernow ("Cornish") are "P-Celtic" or "Brythonic" languages, as is Breton and the ancient languages of the "Britons"; Scots and Irish gaelic languages are "Q-Celtic" or "Goidelic" languages. They are decendants of the languages spoken before the coming of the Romans, the Saxons, Angles (whence comes "English") and Jutes, and the Normans.

Not only am I a New Zealander, I am also of mixed Cornish, Irish, Scots and "Welsh" ancestry and I am also quite an avid student of history. And linguistics.

And as an off-topic aside: the terms "Wales" and "Welsh" both stem from the Saxon word "Wealu" which means "foreigner". The only other known word in current usage that also stems from "Wealu" is...

"Wog".

Now you might understand why I find the words "Welsh" and "Wales" offensive.

Our opinions and viewpoints differ - this is a good thing. Discussing and airing our views is also good.

[Wolf]

New Zealand's own anthem is not a lot better than the English Anthem in some respects:

God of Nations at Thy feet,
In the bonds of love we meet,
Hear our voices, we entreat,
God defend our free land.
Guard Pacific's triple star
From the shafts of strife and war,
Make her praises heard afar,
God defend New Zealand.

Men of every creed and race,
Gather here before Thy face,
Asking Thee to bless this place,
God defend our free land.
From dissension, envy, hate,
And corruption guard our State,
Make our country good and great,
God defend New Zealand.

Peace, not war, shall be our boast,
But, should foes assail our coast,
Make us then a mighty host,
God defend our free land.
Lord of battles in Thy might,
Put our enemies to flight,
Let our cause be just and right,
God defend New Zealand.

Let our love for Thee increase,
May Thy blessings never cease,
Give us plenty, give us peace,
God defend our free land.
From dishonour and from shame,
Guard our country's spotless name,
Crown her with immortal fame,
God defend New Zealand.

May our mountains ever be
Freedom's ramparts on the sea,
Make us faithful unto Thee,
God defend our free land.
Guide her in the nation's van,
Preaching love and truth to man,
Working out Thy glorious plan,
God defend New Zealand.

In short: Lets have peace, lots of peace, but if we can't, let us slaughter all who oppose us...

At least it doesn't pick on the Scots specifically - that's why "God Save the Queen" is still sung here: because we are all part of the Commonwealth except for those damn pesky Scots...

Always wondered why one of my ancestresses risked a sea voyage from Scotland to the Antipodes despite being pregnant, now (thanks to Oscar for supplying the relevant quote) I know.

I think our upcoming republic needs something more up-to-date and befitting our unique culture. Possibly bilingual from the outset rather than having an English version and a Maori translation.

Opinions? Flames? (Asbestos underwear on)

[Oscar]

Well, this "wingnut" is not decided on any particular design for the flag as yet - just so long as it does not include that anti-Celtic abomination, the "Union Jack" - the St George Cross (England's emblem) superimposed OVER the Scots and Irish crosses. Aside from that issue, it is high time NZ had it's own identity instead of a "vassal's banner" such as our current flag is.

As to Cornwall being part of England - I shall say only that I don't have the monopoly on "ignorant and inflammatory remarks" but then I should expect nothing less from one who wants to crush the Scots. (PT alert)

It does not surprise me at all that a) our anthem is bigotted jingoist shyte and b) it is not sung in its full "glory" these days on the grounds that half of Dunedin would march on Parliament tomorrow (and our family would happily supply the pitchforks) - I think that in addition to the flag, we need to get rid of the anthem (which will happily occur when we become a republic)

Cymraeg ("Welsh") and Kernow ("Cornish") are "P-Celtic" or "Brythonic" languages, as is Breton and the ancient languages of the "Britons"; Scots and Irish gaelic languages are "Q-Celtic" or "Goidelic" languages. They are decendants of the languages spoken before the coming of the Romans, the Saxons, Angles (whence comes "English") and Jutes, and the Normans.

Not only am I a New Zealander, I am also of mixed Cornish, Irish, Scots and "Welsh" ancestry and I am also quite an avid student of history. And linguistics.

And as an off-topic aside: the terms "Wales" and "Welsh" both stem from the Saxon word "Wealu" which means "foreigner". The only other known word in current usage that also stems from "Wealu" is...

"Wog".

Now you might understand why I find the words "Welsh" and "Wales" offensive.

Our opinions and viewpoints differ - this is a good thing. Discussing and airing our views is also good.

I posted the (now unused) fifth verse with no comment.

Obviously your history lessons were a bit patchy (I suggest you look at modern Irish history for a start). Research the Union Flag (a "Jack" is only flown on ships). The flag is a result of a Scots King on the English throne...oh, and please explain how you put a white cross of St. George over a white cross of St. Andrew?

Cornwall is part of England. If you start splitting Britian based on old Kingdoms you'll end up with six or seven country's. In fact you could make a case for Normandy, Brittiany and several other French regions to be added back to Engalnd.

"Wog" stands for "Western Oriental Gentleman".

As for a "vassels flag", what is wrong with a flag featuring a emblem that recalls where a majority of the population came from (English & Scots)? I find the individual components of the Union Flag to be slightly offensive due to their religious nature

[Paul in NZ]

When people get their tits in a tangle over obscure possible 'meanings' of a symbol and odd semantics of constitutional law yet ignore the children that still go to school hungry and the folk that do not yet get adequate medical treatment, their priorities are all wrong.

People in my family and most other families in this country, died under that flag believing they were doing the right thing and providing us all with a future and the freedom to indulge in these discussions. I trust in their ultimate sacrifice rather than some damn stupid academic point or the self serving agendas of the new republicans. or ethnic crusaders (on both sides)

There is not much in this country that has the weight of history. Instead to tearing it all down and nit picking over the corpses of ideals that lived in an other time, we should celebrate the very real achievements of these people that carved a modern (and pretty decent) nation from the wilds. Yes, people got hurt, yes bad deeds were done, but nothing like the bad shit that happened elsewhere. We can be proud of that (believe it or not)

Perhaps we could take a page from history an add an appropriate Maori symbol into the Union Flag part of it?

Change the flag if you will, but don't disregard it. Better men and women than us died defending it and have fought under it. You need to respect that.

Leave it alone I say. We have bigger issues to sort out...

[Oscar]

When people get their tits in a tangle over obscure possible 'meanings' of a symbol and odd semantics of constitutional law yet ignore the children that still go to school hungry and the folk that do not yet get adequate medical treatment, their priorities are all wrong.

People in my family and most other families in this country, died under that flag believing they were doing the right thing and providing us all with a future and the freedom to indulge in these discussions. I trust in their ultimate sacrifice rather than some damn stupid academic point or the self serving agendas of the new republicans. or ethnic crusaders (on both sides)

There is not much in this country that has the weight of history. Instead to tearing it all down and nit picking over the corpses of ideals that lived in an other time, we should celebrate the very real achievements of these people that carved a modern (and pretty decent) nation from the wilds. Yes, people got hurt, yes bad deeds were done, but nothing like the bad shit that happened elsewhere. We can be proud of that (believe it or not)

Perhaps we could take a page from history an add an appropriate Maori symbol into the Union Flag part of it?

Change the flag if you will, but don't disregard it. Better men and women than us died defending it and have fought under it. You need to respect that.

Leave it alone I say. We have bigger issues to sort out...

Well said.

[MSTRS:Me]

Changing the flag is just a part of the move to becoming a republic. Sure, we must respect the sacrifices our forebears made, but part of the reason they made those sacrifices was to allow us the freedom to choose our destinies & I'm sure that they would be proud to see us making our own way in the world as an independent nation. When we become a republic (it will happen eventually) then the flag needs to change & not before that. The flag should symbolise who we ARE, NOT where we came from. Imagine a flag with items from GB, all the european countries, Asia etc. F**k that.

[Paul in NZ]

Changing the flag is just a part of the move to becoming a republic. Sure, we must respect the sacrifices our forebears made, but part of the reason they made those sacrifices was to allow us the freedom to choose our destinies & I'm sure that they would be proud to see us making our own way in the world as an independent nation. When we become a republic (it will happen eventually) then the flag needs to change & not before that. The flag should symbolise who we ARE, NOT where we came from. Imagine a flag with items from GB, all the european countries, Asia etc. F**k that.

And would some one please explain to me in simple terms what we have to gain in REAL terms by becoming a republic?

Yes there is precious little gain in being close to Britain these days but it seems a hell of a lot of work to make all the changes just because a few people don't like the idea of a constitutional monarchy....

It's worked well for us so far. If NZ was my business, why would I change?

[Wolf]

And would some one please explain to me in simple terms what we have to gain in REAL terms by becoming a republic?

Umm, having the ruler of the country close by enough to assassinate if they're a total dick? (joke)

[MSTRS:Me]

And if the Windsors want to tour here, then they pay for it themselves.

[Paul in NZ]

The occasional well intensioned (but totally deluded) tour by Prince Chuck and family is a pretty small thing in the grand scheme and avoids us having to fund other away teams (not to mention the hassle of finding them billets) like the rulers of places like Nigeria.

Besides, there are a hell of a lot of people that still like the royals..

Yes, I might not particularly like the current crop (little horse riding pun there) one bit (and here) and don't see why we should be saddled with them (again) but I'm not bridled (getting sad) with anger over it.

A constitutional monarchy is a perfectly workable system. Having Rent a Royal Chuck here for a few weeks is cheaper than having a full time president....

All we would get is helen angling for the presidency when here time as PM is up...

[MSTRS:Me]

I guess it's a case of no system being perfect. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pushing for a change, rather I recognise that it will happen eventually & I won't stand in it's way. For a lot of people I think it's more a frame of mind as in a teenager leaving home thinking it will all be sweet now without the 'olds' jerking his chain. Said teenager will cause/get into strife, but still has to break away to grow up & develop that sense of 'the buck stops here'.

[Jackrat]

Who cares here it is anyway.

The queen don't really like Camilla much but as a sign of good faith shes given her an early wedding present.

A black Merc',a body guard an a free weekend in Paris.

[hobdar]

NO NO NO NO .....

I don't think we should become a republic, damn liberals..and what pray tell would be our constitutional document, the trreaty of Waitangi or the Declaration of Independance signed by the many of the influential Cheifs of the time 4 years earlier than the treaty.....or maybe we should adopt the americans useless consitution

....(umm in other less inflammatory words, i don't think we should be come a republic there are other forms of democracy that are perfectly ok and like the status quo are working perfectly ok)


I also believe that we should retain our current flag, we are a young nation with a rich and colourful (although not always plesant) history and many many New Zelanders rich poor black/brown/white and other shades have died under that flag and it is the one thing that really unites us all into one people one nation. The people who we have decended from who died attempting to defend the freedom that we experience Umm IMHO.

Also in regards to the National Anthem of NZ, i like it the way it is, i think that for me it is about NZ Standing tall and continuing to be a leader in pacific, and that when (and it will come again) the war comes that we participate on the just and right side for the right reasons not for others like hmmm desert storm and the fight to gain control of the richest oil fields in the world

[moko]

Cornwall is part of England. If you start splitting Britian based on old Kingdoms you'll end up with six or seven country's. In fact you could make a case for Normandy, Brittiany and several other French regions to be added back to Engalnd.

Cornwall is definately part of England despite the ranting`s of the "separatists".Oscar`s comment is a good one,nothing is black and white about Britain`s history and Cornwall has no more claim to be a country than the various other old counties and areas that make the country up.Now little more than lines on the map these used to be kingdoms with often different ethnic groups,Celts,Angles,Saxons,Jutes e.t.c.Some like Mercia and Wessex were very powerful but have disappeared as separate counties but the area names live on.
Cornish died out completely at one point and the current language is as interpreted from written versions by academics along with more than a little improvisation.Cumbria changed hands several times in the various wars between Scotland and England as did Calais and other parts of France.England was little more than a French colony for a long time after the Norman Invasion.The Monarchs and aristocracy only spoke French,English was the peasant`s language and the wars between France and England were often the result of family spats over land and property.Similarly the British and German Royals were related,as well as the Romanovs in Russia in the early 20th century,they were all cousins.the Brit branch of the family adopted the name Windsor during the first world war as a diplomatic move,their real family name was Saxe Coburg Gotha (snappy huh?).Likewise Prince Philip took his mothers name,Battenburg,but it was changed to Mountbatten to "anglicise" it.Like I said very little of history is cut and dried or black and white.there are no more "pure blood" Cornish than there are "pure Anglo Saxons".Even before the days of the Empire Brits,the English in particular,were a mixture of races from all over Europe with various migrations,invasions e.t.c. over several generations so to label any modern day English person "Anglo-Saxon" is grossly innaccurate and simplistic.Look at the inter-breeding of various races in N.Z. in a comparitively far shorter length of time and it`s exactly the same thing.
In Britain most dont particularly give a toss about the royals but because of our antiquated constitution the P.M. has massive powers using what is known as "The Royal Perogative",the main reason Blair bailed them out when there were calls for them to be ditched after "Teflon knickers" got wasted in Paris.

[ManDownUnder]

I think we need to look at solving the Royals' lack of popularity issue by making Prince Phillip KING!

I love that guy - every time he opens his mouth he just makes me laugh and laugh - oh how I laugh.

(1967 When asked if he would like to visit the Soviet Union) "The bastards murdered half my family.."

(1981 A comment during the UK's recession) "Everybody was saying we must have more leisure. Now they are complaining they are unemployed.."

(1982 To Solomon Islanders, on being told that their population growth was 5% a year) "You must be out of your minds.."

(1984 On receiving a gift from a Kenyan native woman) "You are a woman aren't you?.."

(1986 To a group of British students in China) "If you stay here much longer you'll all be slittyeyed.."

(To a Cayman Islander) "Aren't most of you descended from pirates?.."

(c. 1990 To a British expat in Hungary) "You can't have been here that long, you haven't got a potbelly yet.."

(1995 To a Scottish driving instructor in Oban) "How do you keep the natives off the booze for long enough to pass their test?.."

(1998 To a student who'd trekked in Papua New Guinea) "You managed not to get eaten then?.."

(1999 On seeing a fuse box while being shown around an Edinburgh factory) "It looks as though it was put in by an Indian.."

(2002 To a school band in Cairns, Australia) "You were playing your instruments weren't you?, or do you have tape recorders under your seats?.."

(2002 To an Aboriginal man on Australia's Tjapukai Aboriginal Cultural Park) "Do you still throw spears at each other..?

(2002 Commenting during the Jubilee tour) "If you travel as much as we do you appreciate how much more comfortable aircraft have become. Unless you travel in something called economy class, which sounds ghastly.."

(2002 Commenting on the London traffic debate, after mayor Ken Livingstone forced through his plan to charge motorists £5 to enter the city) "The problem with London is the tourists. They cause the congestion. If we could just stop tourism we could stop the congestion.."

(Summer 2002 Aboard the floating restaurant 'Il Punto' on the river Orwell in Ipswich, after thoroughly enjoying an excellent full English breakfast) "French cooking's all very well, but they can't do a decent English breakfast.." (Il Punto is owned by Frenchman Regis Crepy..)

(2003 visiting a school, asking a tubby little boy what he wanted to be when he grows up, and being told, 'an astronaut') "You'll have to lose a bit of weight first.."

Yup - make him King and the world will be a much happier place (well I think so anyway)...