Road racing future; Superbike/600 Privateers.......and Production Naked bike Class.

[Shaun P]

I think the most important thing at this stage is to establish rider reps for the N.I and S.I as a point of contact to relay ideas to MNZ etc as it seems alot of good ideas get floated around but nothing ever comes of them because they are not directed through the relevant channels.

[discotex]

Ya see so many riders at trackdays that could move up to fill that feild but don't, why ?

I'm not quite at that level yet but I aspire to be after a few more track days.

The things that will stop me from stepping up to racing are:

- Lack of a fun, safe track close to home (that might just be my perception of Puke having not been there but there you go). Hampton Downs will change that.

- The idea of mixing it up with random bikes in Clubmans doesn't appeal at all. That seems like a trackday with a winner to me.

- Even if I entered clubmans it's then a big jump up to a full noise racing class in F2. From what I understand F3 means buying a 20 year old 400 which hardly appeals after track time on a modern supersport.

- Resale value when moving up classes seems unreliable. Especially if classes change.

- Having no idea of how competitive I'd be. Given timing at trackdays is a no-no it's rather hard to know when you're lapping fast enough to go racing without resorting to stealth timing. Even knowing what to aim for would be good.

- Cost - Being able to afford the bike in the first place is one thing but keeping it on the track for the season is daunting. Even having examples of costs on the table would be great so you can make an informed decision.


I seriously think getting a manufacturer backed production class is the way to go.

Get un-prepped bikes at (near) cost in return for the advertising. Make it a turn-key deal for those who want to give it a go. Get a control tyre at a contracted price for the season in return for splashing their name everywhere.

Get a class wide sponsor to help reduce the costs for everyone. Then everyone at least has one sponsor before finding more. The sponsor will *always* be on the podium regardless of the field. Even better make it an insurance company

Race the same model over several years to keep the costs down or at least de-restrict the older models to keep them competitive. Then those who move up to F1/F2 have a strong resale value of their bike.

A class like that for bikes would push all my buttons


Why not model GT3 Cup and MINI Challenge? They seem to be doing very well in the car world.

[slowpoke]

Goodonya Red, you've run a great series of campaigns over the last few years and now that I know you are still involved with Robbie in Oz I'll definitely be watching a bit closer. As sad as it seems you are probably the only Kiwi representation over there this year. To have such a stepping stone on our door step (check out the ex-convicts on the world stage) and have none of our best and brightest over there bangin' bars seems such a wasted opportunity....have a go ya mug's!

Back to your original post. The privateers cup is a no-brainer and makes obvious sense, someone with influence needs to push this and push it hard.

My fear with the Naked bike series is further dilution of our existing classes. I also wonder at the skill benefits of racing these bikes. Will racing a spongy pud (most of 'em are a compromise at best) help develop the skills to step up to a pure sports bike? Will it also becomes another exercise in racing the latest and greatest with the machine becoming redundant after 2 years? But I also love the old muscle bike era so there is definitely some appeal there......

For all those folk thinking their bike isn't gonna be competitive after the step up from Clubman's (or into Clubman's): just fuggin' do it! The biggest limiting factor is the rider, at entry level, not the machine. Besides a Speed Triple, or Tuono, or 916/996/998 or early 'blade, R1, Gixxer, ZX9 etc is easily a match for an F2 bike and that's who mostly makes up F1. Some of those bikes are cheap as fuggin' chips and represent a cheap way to get on track, with parts also being next to nix. You could damn near buy 2 early R1's for the price of a good Pro-Twin, and I know what I'd rather ride (hint: it's not a commuter bike).

Sorry Red, I've digressed, but it's just a shame that people seem to fixate on having an ultra competitive bike. That competive bike is wasted at entry level and an unnecessary expense yet people seem to think they must have it. We're doing it for fun, and the fact we aren't on the podium shouldn't diminish that fun. The Kiwi attitude of just having a go seems to have been replaced by unless you are winning or close to winning it's not worth it. Shame that.

[JJ58]

Haha, all racers in NZ are privateers on a global level, with maybe the exception of one. Anyway, maybe Red's right, maybe a split class would be good. I personally beleive that the gap between pro twin and 600 will be narrowed with an increase of talent in that field, so that should be the first improvement.

However, many other countries have a rider classification when entering in 600/SB's, in order to differentiate those newbies from competing against the factory teams.

Here's Canada's rules regarding this:

http://www.cdnsuperbike.com/index.ph...901&Itemid=209

A good point for consideration.

[brads]

WHile having a privateer championship would help. I think the bigger problem facing the sport is getting the public's interest. Once the public are interested in coming to watch motorcycle racing, it will be easier to attract the sorts of sponsors who are willing to spend $200'000 pa on a V8 touring car or speedway sprintcar.

Perhaps allowing the privateers more in the way of modifications (cams are cheap horsepower) would get them racing closer to the front of the field.

That's not silly, dangling the carrot

Naked bikes appeal to a different sort of person to fully faired bikes. Imagine having all the post classic racers on their bandit road bikes. Would be better than watching them on their 200 year old 25cc two strokes.

Not sure if cams are THAT cheap mate,and honestly having privateers with more mods than the "factory" boys will not make them closer to them,they are faster because they are better riders,not because they are on faster bikes,free entry is a good idea,but what if they dont win it,entrys would have closed by then,maybe a refund on entry instead.

[SWERVE]

Red glad to see ya posting. not that anyone with a real interest in nz racin would not know who you are or how much time and money you have already committed (not just running triple r)
I think the privateer cup is awesome ( it works everywhere else in the world)
There is a huge gap between "factory/sponsered riders" and the rest and your idea would help to rectify this.
love the naked bike class idea too.......... the very limited mods would mean that you could easily still use it daily (as most of us cant justify 2 bikes)
I have ridden a few nakeds (bikes that is) in the uk against full race bikes and believe you me they are exciting to watch and ride...... as well as "surprising" a few people too
I also think that incorparating BEARS into the mix would be an excellent idea.
just look how successful BEARS is at ruapuna and the SOT. There would be no shortage of competitors. And lets face it if you generally own something fast and non-japanesse you are not "on the bones of your asre" are you.
mate i will be 100% behind you whatever you decide to push.
I have a 15 yr old son who currently races an RG150. He already has an F3 650 and a F2/BEARS 675 lined up to ride later this year. we have a sponsor who wants to help as much as he can to help the boy progress to the top level. WE will all be right behind ya with any new ideas that help the young talent move forward over here.
look forward to you next move
TEAM OS RACING

[scracha]

Will racing a spongy pud (most of 'em are a compromise at best) help develop the skills to step up to a pure sports bike?

Yes, yes yes. Be it a modern sports bike or a spongy pud, the fundamentals of manouvering a bike the fastest way around a track remains the same. Putting it another way, the top Nationals guys could jump on some of the "spongy pud's" out there and still kick ass*.

You could damn near buy 2 early R1's for the price of a good Pro-Twin, and I know what I'd rather ride (hint: it's not a commuter bike).

To be honest, knowing the running costs and in terms of smiles per race and developing my riding, I'd rather have the good Pro-Twin bike...but I digress.
So isn't the real answer just to have a championship within the F1/F2 for bikes 5 years and older? As has been said, it's no more work wot with them computer things that are able to add up points.

The Kiwi attitude of just having a go seems to have been replaced by unless you are winning or close to winning it's not worth it. Shame that.

With the money involved in just competing (peeps in other threads mentioning clubmans racers having trye-warmers, slicks, ohlins, wets, etc...+ transponders) it's hardly surprising folks go there with a must win attitude. I personally think all that go faster $hit should be banned in Clubmans and it should be brought back to the run what ya brung style fun n' games.

I see more stick being given to the $hite 20 year old 400's. The $hite 20 year old 400's currently make up a huge part of the field at club level racing and it's a shame so many F1 and F2 riders continue to knock them. They should instead be encouraging riders to jump on $2K 400's or the 6K pro twins bikes (budget permitting) and just have a go before getting on 600 or thou. There's far too much emphasis on getting inexperienced riders straight into F2 well before they're ready.



*apart from Drew on an RGV250...bwhahahahahahaha

[Ivan]

Yes, yes yes. Be it a modern sports bike or a spongy pud, the fundamentals of manouvering a bike the fastest way around a track remains the same. Putting it another way, the top Nationals guys could jump on some of the "spongy pud's" out there and still kick ass*.


To be honest, knowing the running costs and in terms of smiles per race and developing my riding, I'd rather have the good Pro-Twin bike...but I digress.
So isn't the real answer just to have a championship within the F1/F2 for bikes 5 years and older? As has been said, it's no more work wot with them computer things that are able to add up points.


With the money involved in just competing (peeps in other threads mentioning clubmans racers having trye-warmers, slicks, ohlins, wets, etc...+ transponders) it's hardly surprising folks go there with a must win attitude. I personally think all that go faster $hit should be banned in Clubmans and it should be brought back to the run what ya brung style fun n' games.

I see more stick being given to the $hite 20 year old 400's. The $hite 20 year old 400's currently make up a huge part of the field at club level racing and it's a shame so many F1 and F2 riders continue to knock them. They should instead be encouraging riders to jump on $2K 400's or the 6K pro twins bikes (budget permitting) and just have a go before getting on 600 or thou. There's far too much emphasis on getting inexperienced riders straight into F2 well before they're ready.



*apart from Drew on an RGV250...bwhahahahahahaha

Exactly agree here the lower classes are really really great I used to not be interestedin F3 at all until I got into pro twins but it is really great learning class.

I do think tho a way of allowing guys in F2 F1 to be more competive would be great but still have the opportunity for the fast as guys with the money to spend a provateer series is good

We need to get pro twins bigger maybe Biassed but its a real good stepping stone your on a biggish bike with enough grunt and you have to ride em fast

[Wingnut]

- Even if I entered clubmans it's then a big jump up to a full noise racing class in F2. From what I understand F3 means buying a 20 year old 400 which hardly appeals after track time on a modern supersport.

Dissagree totally. Perhaps you should try it. I love riding a shitty old 400 on the track as opposed to riding a GSXR1000 on the road. Its really enjoyable to be able to shoot round a track (be it at a slower speed than you would on a 1000) and not have to worry about dropping a bike worth $10k +. My track bike is worth less than what it would cost to fix my GSXR if I binned it. Its great!

[k14]

- Even if I entered clubmans it's then a big jump up to a full noise racing class in F2. From what I understand F3 means buying a 20 year old 400 which hardly appeals after track time on a modern supersport.

Have a look at the Ozzy 450 thread. That will probably give you something to look into. It certainly has me very interested. A 600 that goes a little bit slower (we're only talking 3-4s a lap at puke), uses less tyres and is a lot easier on all other aspects regarding wear and tear. You can pick up a 3-4 year old 600 in race trim for around $7k. In my opinion this has just created a big jab in the arm for F3 racing. Someone who doesn't want to spend more than an F2 bike to race in F3 and it is capable of winning. The idea of a converted commuter bike just doesn't really tickle my fancy that much.

In regards to Reds ideas, I think they are great. I do however hold some concerns regarding the naked bike class attracting potential runners in F2 and F1 away though. The privateer idea is awesome!

[svr]

Have a look at the Ozzy 450 thread. That will probably give you something to look into. It certainly has me very interested. A 600 that goes a little bit slower (we're only talking 3-4s a lap at puke), uses less tyres and is a lot easier on all other aspects regarding wear and tear. You can pick up a 3-4 year old 600 in race trim for around $7k. In my opinion this has just created a big jab in the arm for F3 racing. Someone who doesn't want to spend more than an F2 bike to race in F3 and it is capable of winning. The idea of a converted commuter bike just doesn't really tickle my fancy that much.

In regards to Reds ideas, I think they are great. I do however hold some concerns regarding the naked bike class attracting potential runners in F2 and F1 away though. The privateer idea is awesome!

That's definitely an option for 600 clubmans riders looking to move into a racing class - F3. Chris gave me a ride on the 450 last sunday and it is definitely a more rewarding racebike than a protwin or my F3-sv. Cheap racing too - you could use throwaway slicks from superbikes and keep / develop the bike over the years.

The nakedbike class has merits - it would be attractive to casual roadracers who want to race their roadbikes, and the bike isnt rendered obsolete by a new model every year. The downside is that there are large differences in the performance level of the various nakeds, so it's not really a `riders' class in the spirit of production racing.

[Robert Taylor]

That's definitely an option for 600 clubmans riders looking to move into a racing class - F3. Chris gave me a ride on the 450 last sunday and it is definitely a more rewarding racebike than a protwin or my F3-sv. Cheap racing too - you could use throwaway slicks from superbikes and keep / develop the bike over the years.

The nakedbike class has merits - it would be attractive to casual roadracers who want to race their roadbikes, and the bike isnt rendered obsolete by a new model every year. The downside is that there are large differences in the performance level of the various nakeds, so it's not really a `riders' class in the spirit of production racing.

Every class is a riders class! Sure youve got to have competitive machinery to be at the sharp end but that is always the reality, a combination of competitive machinery, set up skill and rider ability. Thats what competition is about irrespective of class rules.

[slowpoke]

Yes, yes yes. Be it a modern sports bike or a spongy pud, the fundamentals of manouvering a bike the fastest way around a track remains the same. Putting it another way, the top Nationals guys could jump on some of the "spongy pud's" out there and still kick ass*.

When ya put it like that I absolutely agree mate. Master's Stroud or Shirrif's would most definiely hand me my arse if they were on say, a Hornet, and I was one of their "cost means nothing" Superbikes. Sad, but true.

To be honest, knowing the running costs and in terms of smiles per race and developing my riding, I'd rather have the good Pro-Twin bike...but I digress.
So isn't the real answer just to have a championship within the F1/F2 for bikes 5 years and older? As has been said, it's no more work wot with them computer things that are able to add up points.

Your on fire fella! It's often occurred to me that there's nowhere to race all those cheap as chips superbikes from a few too many years ago. Surely they present the absolute cheapest way onto a fast sports focussed machine to take to the track. Seems like a wasted resource. As for those cumputer-ma-jigs.that smart fukker at Piako Computers could probably sort something out......?
With the money involved in just competing (peeps in other threads mentioning clubmans racers having trye-warmers, slicks, ohlins, wets, etc...+ transponders) it's hardly surprising folks go there with a must win attitude. I personally think all that go faster $hit should be banned in Clubmans and it should be brought back to the run what ya brung style fun n' games.

Again, your on to it. Maybe a stipulation of entering Clubman's should be "No Tyre Warmers"? If you have got your shit sorted that far maybe you should be looking at F1/2/3 rather than what should be an entry level class?

Have a look at the Ozzy 450 thread. That will probably give you something to look into. It certainly has me very interested. A 600 that goes a little bit slower (we're only talking 3-4s a lap at puke), uses less tyres and is a lot easier on all other aspects regarding wear and tear. You can pick up a 3-4 year old 600 in race trim for around $7k. In my opinion this has just created a big jab in the arm for F3 racing. Someone who doesn't want to spend more than an F2 bike to race in F3 and it is capable of winning. The idea of a converted commuter bike just doesn't really tickle my fancy that much.

In regards to Reds ideas, I think they are great. I do however hold some concerns regarding the naked bike class attracting potential runners in F2 and F1 away though. The privateer idea is awesome!

While I love the idea of the Ozzy 450 (unlike most Mr Osborne is all action and lil' talk, champion) I don't quite see the logic behind buying an old F2 bike and turning it in to an F3 bike. Why not just run it in F2? As per discussions with Chris himself, a better idea would be to buy an up to the minute F2 R6 (for example only) for a promising rider, convert it to F3 for his/her entry, then after a year of F3 run it in F2 whil it's still at the pointy end. That way suspension development and familiarity with the machine are not wasted. For not much more than the cost of a top end service it makes great sense...pity I'm such an old fart.

[k14]

While I love the idea of the Ozzy 450 (unlike most Mr Osborne is all action and lil' talk, champion) I don't quite see the logic behind buying an old F2 bike and turning it in to an F3 bike. Why not just run it in F2? As per discussions with Chris himself, a better idea would be to buy an up to the minute F2 R6 (for example only) for a promising rider, convert it to F3 for his/her entry, then after a year of F3 run it in F2 whil it's still at the pointy end. That way suspension development and familiarity with the machine are not wasted. For not much more than the cost of a top end service it makes great sense...pity I'm such an old fart.

Well my logic is that it is a way to get used to 600's without having to firstly fork out the cost of a new/season old 600 and secondly save money on the biggest cost of tyres. Secondly it would cost a similar amount to converting an SV650 to F3/pro twin trim and you get the same level of competition (not far off 600's either).

See for me, having done quite a bit of racing in 125's, there is no clear direction to go apart from the rather large (IMO) step up to 600's. That is a very costly experience and without support from the half dozen or so guys in NZ that know how to set one up and win in the class you are wasting your time. I see pro twins as a side step and a commuter commuter bike converted to race setup doesn't exactly appeal (although I admit I have never ridden one) to someone coming from a pure bred grand prix machine. The Ozzy 450 method provides an excellent halfway step in between.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

here we go again!