What would you ask MNZ for?

[steveyb]

Ya reckon!

Watch this space buddy, I think you may just be on to something there stevey boy, now, where can I find a boy to ride my TZ138 and another to ride my TZ 130?

138 and 130???
Damn, and here I was telling everyone that it was the turbo and NOx making them go so fast.
Shows what the $#@%* I know.

[Robert Taylor]

Im going to pander to an indignant remark about not answering questions even though to most the answer is bleeding obvious;

ENDURANCE RACING RIDER STATS DISPARITY

1)If the team manger had the luxury of choice he would prefer to choose riders that are fast, keep it on the road and are as close as possible in height and weight, also riding style. Therefore ( and all respect to these guys ) you are hardly likely to see Sam Love and Sloan Frost teamed up.

2) There obviously is going to have to be a setting compromise not only in chassis / suspension but footpegs / handlebars / seat pads etc. Both riders have to be happy with the compromise and that also has to be balanced out how its going to impact on tyre degradation / wear etc.

Solo riders wont have the same constraints so they can hone their settings more for best possible laptime. thats what its about isnt it?

Doubtless there are more reasons. Ho flipping hum...

[slowpoke]

Good on ya Gary keep it up mate.But you are flogging a dead horse with this lot.But in the interest of open debate you got balls for injecting some much needed counter arguement to this issue.

Yup, I'm happy to consider counter arguments from knowledgeable people who understand the ins and outs of racing and modify my views accordingly. But, given that some incredibly well credentialled racers and mechanical types have blown holes in most of his theories and attacks it's hardly suprising the "horse" is headed for the glue factory.

As I understand it MNZ is proposing a "Privateers Class" and the reason for this is to grow the sport by keeping costs to a minimum and to encourage youth back into the fold.

As I understand it MNZ were not the ones to propose this class so you shouldn't be laying the credit at their feet. Mores the pity, they should have been far more proactive in recognising the growing problems in our sport and we'd all be a bit happier with their performance.

You superbike and supersport riders still get to keep your class...so whats the problem?Take a look around you at the Nats,there aint many of ya.

The "problem" is that Superbike riders are second class citizens when it comes to track time, hence the small Superbike numbers. They get half the action nearly all other classes receive thanks to our cross entry rules. Consider the cost of a basic R1 racer vs the cost of a basic R6 racer then look at that cost spread over the number of laps you get in a couple of seasons it's hardly suprising most people opt for the R6. How is Naked Bike or a Privateer Cup addressing this?

Step out of your little world and look at the big picture and lets get this sport back where it belongs by encouraging more participation by making it more affordable.

Take your own advice and look at more than the issue of affordability. As above, you can make Superbikes as cheap as you like but without equivalent track time people are still going to avoid them like the plague.

Go to a Vic Club meeting and you'll see there is absolutely no problem with participation levels (apart from genuine Superbikes), with oversubscribed grids.....at club level. Most riders race two classes so how do you explain the so called problem of "affordability" if they are prepared to double their running costs? Seriously, explain that to me.

Contrast the above club events with the the obvious problems at the Nationals level. Given that cheap racing is already available in the Nationals class with Pro Twins and the grids are still small the problem would NOT appear to be strictly cost based but something to do with the way MNZ is running the Nationals series and promoting (tui ad) our sport in general.

One off street meets are chockers with entries, Scrivy's one off Taupo Spectacular is truly spectacular, yet MNZ have alienated riders to the point where they won't even turn up for a one off appearance at their local Nats round. Everything points to an MNZ problem, it's more than just about making it as cheap as possible.

And yes i am loosely quoting MNZ CEO Paul Pavs newsletter in the latest Motorcycle Trader.I don't know the man personally but i do agree with his remarks regarding roadracings future.I suggest if you have a problem with what he's trying to achieve then put your hand up and put yourself forward for the job.

It's about more than just agreeing with one person's "vision". Do they have a credible plan to actually create it? Are they capable of carrying out that plan? Will they engage other people and the M/C industry in general to grow the vision or will they alienate people as they go? Are they flexible or rigid in their thinking? Will they accept constructive criticism to improve the plan? How have they performed previously?

Personally I'm not seeing too many favourable responses when applying these questions to current MNZ management.

[slowpoke]

So, what would I ask MNZ for?

1: Fix the cross entry rules such that all riders get a fair return on their investment

2: Have MNZ management publicise their attendance at a series of club meetings to experience the grass roots climate and concerns.

3: Start their own discussion/information forum on the MNZ website, with no monikers or false names to hide behind.

4: Liase with Oz Organisers to give the winner (or first Kiwi home, eh Robbie?) and first privateer home in Supersport/Superbike classes entries into the Oz MotoGP or WSBK support races. It's not that expensive to ship a bike and a bit of gear over the ditch. Give the people something to actually race for and get excited about rather than just the overdraft they have accumulated.

[eelracing]

So therefore you are completely ignoring the sound technical reasons that have been put forward rationalising why allowing spring changes only to rear shocks doesnt cure squat / pitch control issues...

Not ignoring but just don't think it relevant to a true production series that pits riders against each other on identical bikes they can buy off of the shop floor or even 3 or 4 years old bikes.It may even encourage clubmens and F3 riders who don't wanna spend 20 + grand to be competitive in F3 (altho i do like the idea of the 3 cylinder gixxer).

At the end of the day the "squat/pitch control issues" are going to be a factor for all so he/she who has/learns the better race craft is gonna be the best coz they are the best.Not because he/she has the biggest cheque book.

And maybe then (here's the kicker)they might have the confidence and the backing to step up to the supersport class.Which is got to be good for you and the sport in the long run.

[eelracing]

So therefore you are completely ignoring the sound technical reasons that have been put forward rationalising why allowing spring changes only to rear shocks doesnt cure squat / pitch control issues...

Not ignoring but just don't think it relevant to a true production series that pits riders against each other on identical bikes they can buy off of the shop floor or even 3 or 4 years old bikes.It may even encourage clubmens and F3 riders who don't wanna spend 20 + grand to be competitive in F3 (altho i do like the idea of the 3 cylinder gixxer).

At the end of the day the "squat/pitch control issues" are going to be a factor for all so he/she who has/learns the better race craft is gonna be the best coz they are the best.Not because he/she has the biggest cheque book.

And maybe then (here's the kicker)they might have the confidence and the backing to step up to the supersport class.Which is got to be good for you and the sport in the long run.

[quallman1234]

but shit the Formula 3 bikes with a nice suspension system the bikes handle really well and go really well.

f1/f2 are still commuterbikes really to at the endof the day ecause they were once road bikes and have lights etc removed,

I argue tho that saying F3 is Downgrading depends how much you want to put into your bike same as 125's really

125 > Protwin is pretty much the same, except sloppy chassis etc. I just don't like it.
125 > F3 could be a different story, but buggering round with bikes, aint really what up and comers should be doing. Ofc, you don't always have to bugger round with bikes in F3.

Just my oppion.

[slowpoke]

....... he/she who has/learns the better race craft is gonna be the best coz they are the best.Not because he/she has the biggest cheque book.

More likely they just weigh 65kg's and no-one else is allowed to tune the suspension for their weight. If you aren't a jockey you might as well not turn up.

[Robert Taylor]

Not ignoring but just don't think it relevant to a true production series that pits riders against each other on identical bikes they can buy off of the shop floor or even 3 or 4 years old bikes.It may even encourage clubmens and F3 riders who don't wanna spend 20 + grand to be competitive in F3 (altho i do like the idea of the 3 cylinder gixxer).

At the end of the day the "squat/pitch control issues" are going to be a factor for all so he/she who has/learns the better race craft is gonna be the best coz they are the best.Not because he/she has the biggest cheque book.

And maybe then (here's the kicker)they might have the confidence and the backing to step up to the supersport class.Which is got to be good for you and the sport in the long run.

So going on from there its irrelevant that those well known pitch / squat control issues are the major contibutor in destroying tyres quickly, EXTREMELY quickly at circuits like Teretonga. ???????????????????
Heck, we get ordinary everyday track day riders coming to us all the time seeking solutions to their squat / understeer and tyre issues.
Bear in mind that that 3 clinder Gixxer has a $4500 rear Indy car shock in it, are you going to vilify Chris for ''chequebook racing''?
There are certain technical issues ( such as recalibration of damping ) that just have to be addressed, thereby actually saving the cost of changing tyres too readily, but alas just like the head in the sand at the top there are none so blind as those that cannot see.

[FROSTY:Me]

Steveyb and Oyster. You guys are out there actually DOING it. So from that point of view its hard to argue with you. Guess Im waay down there kinda lighting a tiny little flame of interest that you guys fan into a decent fire in their bellys.
But Guys I'm not sure 125 gp is the next step.
Im not saying NO ITS NOT Im just not convinced. Mainly because of the one size doesn't fit all issue with a 125.

[Shorty_925]

Wouldnt motards be a great entry to getting kids into road racing? I know it isnt 'proper' road racing, but more of a future with bikes around than what buckets are, and less cost if little johnny throws a race bike down the road. And if they dont like it, they can always sell the wheels and go back to mx. People seem to like them and the classes pull large feilds at street races.

[steveyb]

Steveyb and Oyster. You guys are out there actually DOING it. So from that point of view its hard to argue with you. Guess Im waay down there kinda lighting a tiny little flame of interest that you guys fan into a decent fire in their bellys.
But Guys I'm not sure 125 gp is the next step.
Im not saying NO ITS NOT Im just not convinced. Mainly because of the one size doesn't fit all issue with a 125.

No, you are right they are not for everyone.
But almost anyone can actually ride one and ride one fast.
Clearly to be champion there is an optimal size range.
But hey, I can still punt one around in some sort of not totally embarassing manner at 90kg dry!
I recall Owen Wilson (OB) at over 6' tall going really fast on an old RS125, and the new ones are a bit bigger.

But if we are discussing youth development and we are thinking about riders who want to be champions, then if they are not the appropriate size for the sport then how can they ever be champions. In the end there just has to be horses for courses. Would we consider putting a jockey in the front row of a scrum? Would we consider putting a front rower in a basketball team? No, so champion road racers will fit within a narrow range of sizes also. And don't throw Choppa and Stroudy at me. Stroudy is slim and lean and wasn't always as tall as he is now. Choppa is fast, but isn't a roadrace champ yet. Compare all the other SS600 and SBK riders and you will see that they are all quite similar is stature.

So in NZ to cater for riders who perhaps can't or do not want to race 125 we recently created Pro-Twin.

You know, in every country in the world that has any current currency in roadracing, the premier class for youth and racer development is 125GP (with the new 250 4 stroke bikes slowly taking their place). Have a good look around: Italy, France, Spain, Japan, USA, UK, Australia, Germany, Hungary, Czech. They all have very strong and competitive 125GP racing.

Countries that aspire to the top levels such as; New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, etc do not have really strong 125GP racing but persist with 600 and 650 roadbikes.

But, I will defer to the great Kiwi 'we know better and will do it our own way' school of thought.

Enjoy

[fossil]

No Frosty, you haven't taken it out of context.

Obviously, my source of Information is now questionable.

If there has only been 5 accidents in 5 years, that is far better than the National RR Champs.

I will ask my source to clarify their info.

However my Point still stands, Accident statistics is something MNZ could be looking into for us.

The info on their site is dated 2005

The figures are available direct from the following link. They relate to all sports.

Of particular note is that of motorcycling, I have asked ACC and they confirm that these figures only relate to non road accident/injury claims @ $7.22m.

Trail biking and motocross are further down the page and classed separately @ $8.17m

http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/stati...aims/IS0800367

[Robert Taylor]

125 is a totally unPC class it discriminates against against overweight people and taking into account NZ is at the beginning of an obestity problem I can't see it catering for the new generation of obess kids.

Enjoy

Sorry Steve hope you understand this is just a piss take.

Now for something serious:

I always knew people had to have some serious issues to ride a Motard and now Ive found out what they are. "Pitch and Squat"

We definately don't want any "Pitching and Squating" going on in Supersport either. Next thing riders will want to be able to put their leg out.

Twister you are at it again, not content to take your shame gracefully you continue to act like a sad little man.
Frankly I care no longer if I get nailed for this....of course motards are going to pitch and squat because theres lots more travel to account for it you moron. You need to seek help for your permanent chip on your shoulder, big time.
For the record I dont mind Motards and if its a way of getting more people to cross over from MX then its all good. They have an interesting set of dynamics going on, especially compensating for trail figures that are not ideal for road race, and pro squat going on in the rear if they are lowered lots.

[GSVR]

Twister you are at it again, not content to take your shame gracefully you continue to act like a sad little man.
Frankly I care no longer if I get nailed for this....of course motards are going to pitch and squat because theres lots more travel to account for it you moron. You need to seek help for your permanent chip on your shoulder, big time.
For the record I dont mind Motards and if its a way of getting more people to cross over from MX then its all good. They have an interesting set of dynamics going on, especially compensating for trail figures that are not ideal for road race, and pro squat going on in the rear if they are lowered lots.

2008 Aprilia 550 SXV Rake angle: 25.2° Trail: 104 mm.
SV650 Rake 24.8 degrees Trail 100mm
GSX600 Katana Rake 24 degrees Trail 96mm
K9GSXR1000 Rake 23.8 Trail 98.3mm
2008 KTM Superduke R Rake 22.7 Trail 94mm
2007 KTM 660 SMC Rake 27.0 Trail 99mm

Whats that about trail figures? Whats a good set of rake and trail figures for a 600 racebike? I know how to measure it but its not something I've seen people measuring at the track!