When is verbal or physical domestic violence understandable?

[cowboyz]

Very true. I doubt many people would have NEVER yelled something offensive at someone in anger - but that is as far as it goes. They don't get up the following morning and carry on the shouting and continue it every day. I once went out with a guy who was very good at belittling me by pointing out that his ex was really clever, she'd been to university and he used to have very intelligent conversations with her. At the time I just thought he was a wanker and the relationship didn't last long after that, but I wonder if he would have carried on in that vein if we had stayed together.

I got one slap across the face - ONCE - by an ex and that was enough for me to walk out, never to return.

My husband and I will have heated debates when we have differing views - the difference is we don't throw "fuck you" and "what do you know, you're a fucking moron" into the mix!

I can understand the frustration you feel when you are dealing with someone who really knows how to wind you up, but the best thing to do is to walk away until you both calm down. I came from a family of sulkers - man, my father could sulk for weeks! I much prefer a bit of shouting, followed by an apology and then life goes on.

I know physical abuse is appalling and not acceptable under any circumstances, but I think verbal abuse can often be worse. Being constantly told you are useless can be just as horrible.

Compare this - heard a little girl aged about three out with her father ask him a question and he turned around and said "shut the fuck up will you". She looked like the bottom had fallen out of her world. Yesterday we were at a car show and a woman was having trouble with her two young sons. "If you do not apologise to your brother now, I will have to sit you down for three minutes to think about how mean that was". Next thing we heard a "sorry" and off they went to enjoy the rest of their day. Which kid would you rather be? And which kid would you rather have in your life as a partner when they grow up?

some people ever learnt the skills to say sorry. There are some actions that can be greatly dulled (but not excused) by true remorse. I am a true believer in free speech and you can say anything you want to me and that is fine. I have zero tolerance once it turns physical. If you dont like what I have to say then tell me Im an arse and walk away. I will return the favour.

So...a question. Say we have a hypothetical situation where one partner is abusing the other mentally, verbally, emotionally...the other partner snaps and uses superior strength to turn the tables physically. Why is it only the retaliation that receives society's condemnation?

Actually, retaliation is a defence. In the recent months at work my boss didnt like what I had to say so he hit me with a rake causing deep bruising and resulting in 9 days off work. The police did not lay charges because they claim it wouldnt stand up in court because he claims I assaulted him firt by throwing grass seed at him, even with no proof. I had photos, witness statements, medical certificates and a big bruise on my leg. He had his word and no evidence and that was enough for the police to not lay charges. Subsequently my working life is very very shit now.

Because the rest of it is subjective and very specific to the subtext of the interaction between those two individuals, and generally, none of it is recorded as any sort of permanent evidence.

The retaliation, though, leaves bruises that can be photographed.

Society condemns plenty of things that involve simply saying or doing something that doesn't physically harm anyone, but at some point you have to draw a line at what's reasonably possible to define, and to prove after the fact.

As it was explained to me by lawyers and police, bruises mean nothing. They heal.

Actually that is the police policy here. Zero tolerance for domestic violence. However sometimes officers can't tell who is at fault and furthermore are attacked by the person they arrived to rescue.

But you are correct - the police don't need evidence from the victim to prosecute.

but police need to get off their arses, put down the donuts and actually give a shit. My case was not brought to charges because I was only hit once, it was on a no lethal part of my body even though it left a huge bruise, the police could not establish intent even though there were witness statements. If the police dont want to do anything there is fuckall you can do about it.

[Big Dog]

In General terms: the first person to stoop to violence is the loser of the confrontation on an intellectual level, even if they win on a physical level.

Reality though is that there are some times when I think homocide is justified so why not domestic violence / homocide?

If a current partner threatened my children and I could not other wise restrain them you better believe I would knock them cold without any hesitation. Their being my partner would be no protection.

If you had the power to "push the button" on your significant other would you if he /she / it was about to push that button on your children?

So there it is, for most people both statements are true, violence is not ok but it is if there is sufficient penalty for failing to stand up. The question is where is the line that when it is crossed is it becomes acceptable if not honoured?

For me that line is when there is a clear and present danger to me or my loved ones. That would include knocking out a loved one to stop them from killing themselves.
Pretty easy to answer when in a good mood and not under stress.
Ask me again after 36 hours of pestering about something I gave a final ruling on in the first hour?
What about when I am in fear of being homeless again if things don't change as well?
What the factors are we don't know (unless one of you is Tony Veitch). Only one man knows what made him snap.

What I do know is the bible says judge not lest you be judged.
I don't condone his actions, but we all have our price, our own line in the sand.

[Mikkel]

Actually, retaliation is a defence. In the recent months at work my boss didnt like what I had to say so he hit me with a rake causing deep bruising and resulting in 9 days off work. The police did not lay charges because they claim it wouldnt stand up in court because he claims I assaulted him firt by throwing grass seed at him, even with no proof. I had photos, witness statements, medical certificates and a big bruise on my leg. He had his word and no evidence and that was enough for the police to not lay charges. Subsequently my working life is very very shit now.

The police might not choose to lay charges, but you should still be able to...

[cowboyz]

The police might not choose to lay charges, but you should still be able to...

nope. public cant lay charges. public lay complaints. it is up to the police to bring the charges.

[Winston001]

Come on this is all a bit twee. At the end of the day the only actions that you can control are your own. Do so. Don't hit people (unless they start it, and FFS never if it's a women), and if you're really getting frustrated/threatened/angry get out.

Agreed in general. Most of us do control ourselves. However consider:

A man or woman who discovers they have been betrayed by their partner.....

A man or woman who is denied access to their children....

A man or woman who is falsely accused of sexually assaulting their children...

A man or woman who is constantly criticised and treated with contempt by their partner.....

The same hurt man or woman who is drunk.....


We are all human and have our breaking points.

[Mikkel]

nope. public cant lay charges. public lay complaints. it is up to the police to bring the charges.

Sometimes I get this nagging feeling that there's something seriously wrong with the legal system in this country.

[Nasty]

I have seen physical abuse be overcome .. but the pain caused by the emotional abuse hampered this person for years.

[cowboyz]

Agreed in general. Most of us do control ourselves. However consider:

A man or woman who discovers they have been betrayed by their partner.....

A man or woman who is denied access to their children....

A man or woman who is falsely accused of sexually assaulting their children...

A man or woman who is constantly criticised and treated with contempt by their partner.....

The same hurt man or woman who is drunk.....


We are all human and have our breaking points.

however true this is and I am not sure it is. I am really an aggresive pacifist really.
There comes a point where action has consequence. Surely we cant say abolish all violence because people are human. What can be said is there should be punishment and consequence for physical abuse.

To answer your (rhytorical (sp?) questions.

A man or woman who discovers they have been betrayed by their partner.....

then they leave. They consider what they liked about theie partner and wonder why they are in a relationship with someone who is decietful and try to find a mate who is more trustworthy.

A man or woman who is denied access to their children....

This is a bastard of an idea on so many levels. I have many opinions on this one but resulting in physical abuse is not one of them

A man or woman who is falsely accused of sexually assaulting their children...

Anyone who is falsely accused of sexually assault surely would not be doing themselves any favours in the courts to add a factual assault charge.

A man or woman who is constantly criticised and treated with contempt by their partner.....

The whole, years and years of contempt and verbal abuse makes me wonder (because it is the type of person I am) how come the relationship lasted so long. You teach people how to treat you. I am a big believer in that. The first time someone I am dating says something that is costrude as verbal abuse I am clear that that is not acceptable. When my wife and I first got together we had a conversation on what we considered the rules of the relationship are. They are pretty simple but based around repect. 13 years later we abide by the same rules and are now married and have children who abide by the same rules. The point is, relationships are funny things in that for one couple, referring to each other as a bitch and bastard may be perfectly fine. It works. Thats ok. For others it may well not be ok.
I think the dating culture in NZ is much more of a oppourtunity hook up rather than spending time with someone, finding out you like each other and starting a relationship.

The same hurt man or woman who is drunk.....

alcohol is not an excuse. I dont believe alcohol makes anyone act in any way that they wouldnt do sober. Just gives a bit more of an excuse.

[Lissa]

Agreed in general. Most of us do control ourselves. However consider:

A man or woman who discovers they have been betrayed by their partner.....

A man or woman who is denied access to their children....

A man or woman who is falsely accused of sexually assaulting their children...

A man or woman who is constantly criticised and treated with contempt by their partner.....

The same hurt man or woman who is drunk.....


We are all human and have our breaking points.

Well anyone who is in these situations have options other than violence.

What I am hearing or reading all the time is that alcohol fuels violence. And it does. I know it does. Yes we are all human but not all humans use their fists to make themselves feel good or to remedy a situation, alcohol is not an excuse. Even with the above situations you desribed IF you think you are capable or will do violence to another person (ie your partner) WITHOUT the aid of alcohol, shouldnt you go see a professional or get some help? If you are violent when you ARE drinking you also need help. Its not normal. And its not just adults who get hurt either... how many children are killed or hurt by violent parents/family members.

[Indoo]

Sometimes I get this nagging feeling that there's something seriously wrong with the legal system in this country.

I don't think you'd want a system whereby the public lay charges and the Police arrest people regardless of the evidence based on someones say so.

[cowboyz]

I don't think you'd want a system whereby the public lay charges and the Police arrest people regardless of the evidence based on someones say so.

thats for sure. the process it ok. its just when the wrong people do bad things and the police are too busy to deal with it then it leaves a foul taste.

And yes, I am bitter, fucked off and feel hard done by.

[sharknet]

2 years of having every spelling mistake and every grammatical error written down in a book plus other stuff - what's that called. no smilie faces here

School...?

[Indoo]

thats for sure. the process it ok. its just when the wrong people do bad things and the police are too busy to deal with it then it leaves a foul taste.

And yes, I am bitter, fucked off and feel hard done by.

Lay a complaint, it costs nothing, if it is as you say and there was overwhelming evidence against him including physical injuries and witness evidence while he had nothing to support his side then you certainly have grounds. Better doing something than feeling hard done by.

[cc rider]

The whole, years and years of contempt and verbal abuse makes me wonder (because it is the type of person I am) how come the relationship lasted so long.

I applaud your family ethics.

Abuse: It can slowly infest you like a rot. It's not always a 'relationship lasting' thing. Sometimes it takes a few years to get yourself into a position, financially, emotionally, to be able to leave.
Fear is a powerful thing. It can make you physically sick many years later, just talking or typing about it.

As Nasty said "the pain caused by the emotional abuse hampered this person for years."

[cowboyz]

Lay a complaint, it costs nothing, if it is as you say and there was overwhelming evidence against him including physical injuries and witness evidence while he had nothing to support his side then you certainly have grounds. Better doing something than feeling hard done by.

I did lay a complaint with the police and they chose not to lay charges because of reasons listed above.
Got me no where. Actually, that is a bit hard cause it got me about 500 yrs backwards. I am the scum of the earth and the only time anyone talks to me at work is to tell me how I am not a real man cause a real man does not go running to the police when they get assualted. It is all a bit messy. I would love to quit but I dont have job offers banging my door down.
There are consequences to laying complaints. ALot that I didnt realise were there. I am stunned at the position everyone at work has taken but until I find another job I am pretty much fucked. Another driving point to my staying is I am half way through an apprenticeship. Quit and I lose it.

I applaud your family ethics.

Abuse: It can slowly infest you like a rot. It's not always a 'relationship lasting' thing. Sometimes it takes a few years to get yourself into a position, financially, emotionally, to be able to leave.
Fear is a powerful thing. It can make you physically sick many years later, just talking or typing about it.

As Nasty said "the pain caused by the emotional abuse hampered this person for years."

point taken. I do feel lucky really, but my point was I dont think I got lucky by accident. It gets really tough once finances and kids get invloved but no love is unconditional. It is a bit tough if all of a sudden after years of someone treating you a particular way that they find out it is unacceptable.