i c, yeh thats a lot different to the one i was thinking of, though bad data entry is hardly the computers fault.Originally Posted by quickbuck
Hell yes, gimme one!
Yes, but only if produced cheaply enough
Undecided
Only if the manufacturers include it on bikes
No, a complete waste of time
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i c, yeh thats a lot different to the one i was thinking of, though bad data entry is hardly the computers fault.
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definetely on my to do list
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you, my good sir, appear to be trolling!
of course i do not mean the overal error is slight, just the the bug in the program was probably just a single line of code or something similar, i guess this was the case because the plane in question seemed to make a near perfect landing (im no aviation expert btw) but about a km past the runway.
Highway Biker
That was most unpolite, and I expect some form of apology.
Wrong. Just a single line of code is enough to kill hundreds, so under no circumstances it may be regarded as "slight". Spent a lot of time working in laboratories for processes that could easily cause a lot of damage (food processing plants, water supply, pharmaceutical ), and what I learned there is that a single comma can kill thousands, it is not to be regarded as "slight". Imagine I type the upper limit for pesticides in human drinkable water and I type 100.0 where it should read 1.000; that's a typo, a slight error by your account, but think about the consequences...
So please, even if you don't listen to anything else that is being written in this whole thread; please take this as number one rule: There are no slight errors when lives are involved.
Rider Coach
This means you should practice them MORE, not LESS.
It may be that you snatched your lever... or you rode over a piece of slippery road.....
BUT
I suspect you dropped your head.
Reason being, if you snatched the lever then the wheel would have locked first up.... by the sound of it, not.
Hit something with less traction while under braking, you should have been able to release the lever as soon as the wheel skidded to get it rolling like a wheel, rather pretend to be a skate.....
I say you dropped your head, as if your head was up you can actually keep the front wheel locked for a little while....
Try it on the MTB and you can actually cover quite a distence across a wet lawn if you keep your head up.
So all that said.... what tells you where the traction limit actually is? Or how far you are from it?
Forum whore
just a comment on the fearless/oblivious - one can instantly see that he's going to bin the moment he sped up to follow that clearly faster rider, and then starts crossing the centreline just to make a fast enough line through the turns.
no amount of electronic wizardry can account for that sort of riding.
right - this is where I feel you're missing a LOT of what is said all over the world about motorcycling safety
you and your uncle should partake in some rider training. The RRRS course is a very good course run at whenuapai airbase that strongly i recommend taking - for only $25 too!
I personally have run several "learner rides" for the uni bike club and try to teach good ways to avoid those classic newbie mistakes like target fixation, locking brakes and other "survival instincts" that lead to crashes, by training so that the correct action is the instinctive one. I also specifically pick roads that suit the skill level of the rider/riders and warn ahead of time that the surface deteriorates or corners tighten; in this way learners can "have a go" at dodgy surfaces without the surprise and panic, and so far the only "SMC Learner Ride" crash has, embarrassingly, been my own! (rider fatigue; fell asleep. 'nuff said.)
again i suggest the RRRS course, to practice your stopping in a safe way with proper instruction. front wheels lock with no warning in only (generally) two situations; ice, oil or wet paint, and when rider grabs the brakes suddenly rather than gradually. the third case is if you ride a GN250
in the second case, presumably yours, a flashing light would not have helped - rider training would have.
what i'm trying to put across, is that while it's all good to say "oh the rider will allow for dodgy surfaces", the honest fact is that ALL surfaces are potentially dodgy, so some gizmo that abitrarily assigns a friction co-efficient of your crappy shinko tyre to wet tar bleed, assuming an ideal condition of slicks to a racetrack is only going to give a LEARNER a false sense of security. an interesting thing i found on the learner rides is that many newbies don't realise how slippery tar bleed is; your device sure won't teach 'em!
what a learner needs to do, as part of LEARNING, is to find by experience what does and doesn't work. the road is not a racetrack. as soon as we try to find the limits of our bike, we are trying to max out your traction-ometer, which is inherently a dangerous proposition.
What you may also find, is most (possibly all) bikes in good road conditions will scrape pegs before tyres let go, and for many they can do it even in the wet. this basically reduces your system to only being useful as a braking aid, for which ABS does a better job, and in my personal and professional opinion (i ride scooters part time) knowing and judging the limits ofyour bike and how to behave in an emergency will trump any brake-ometer you can come up with
and as a final note - nine times out of ten i swerve in favour of braking; many learners panic, brake, and bin. only once for me has swerving failed, and it was still a better outcome than braking.
Side note: today, while carrying a pillion, i "cruised" through a left hand turn at some lights that i do every day quite happily. dry road, very new and good surface, nice warm sticky tyres. with the pillion aboard, however, i felt the front slip ever so slightly when crossing the painted white line. I was able to discern this, as would DB's light and a GP bike's slip sensor. Your system should have told me i was at approx 75% of cornering speed at the entry right through to exit, accounting for pillion.
perhaps that case may illustrate why i think your system would be a cause of injury for learners who would beleive your meter without noticing the slip by inexperience, and also that if a learner had done a similar move but witha longer, more obvious slip, they would have hit the brakes, thus condemning them to a lowside into oncoming traffic.
likewise a few weeks back i (stupidly) re-learned to stay away from the centreline on right handers - clipped a reflector and the front slipped almost a foot then regained traction, which then broke the rear loose for a 100kph tail wobble around the rest of the corner. experience told me to hold the line and sure enough it settled out. a newbie would have stood her up and ridden into a ditch, or hit the brakes and slid her into a ditch - "oh, but the traction meter said i was at 75%!"
my learner rides seek to address exactly the above described sort of circumstances where "survival instincts" like hitting the brakes cause injury.
ie, rider training trumps technological marvels
Forum whore
that reminds me - when emergency braking, you always look AHEAD.
the moment you look down, the bike will become less stable (you are no longer piloting it straight, and are relying on balance) and wobble, ending with a tucked front wheel.
if you start to brake and look at your dashboard, you are commited to stopping. you SHOULD be looking for an exit to swerve and avoid the obstacle altogether.
another reason why a traction meter would cause accidents - and don't say it will have a 5sec delay cause then it's useless in an emergency anyway!
final final note: if you can't hold a locked wheel upright in a straight line for a second or more, invest in some training wheels, or - you guessed it! - rider training
Double shot!!
A meter on the dash to look at in real-time is too dangerous. Eyes must be up while riding, and all effort into steering and braking where appropriate in an emergency. All natural rider-instinct and learned survival tricks apply.
What I have written about, is a device that can review a recent event in hindsight, and apply a methodical scientific analysis peer-review, and suggest whether the rider may have overstepped some safety boundary, on the basis of fingerprints stored in the devices' memory.
Smoothness and rider-development are encouraged, and the riders' response to an emergency will directly influence either a positive or negative peer-review by the device, depending on whether they panic, brake, and slide, or smoothly brake and steer. "well done, son" or "damn that was close" responses, depending on how the rider handled it.
Steve
"I am a licenced motorcycle instructor, I agree with dangerousbastard, no point in repeating what he said."
"read what Steve says. He's right."
"What Steve said pretty much summed it up."
"I did axactly as you said and it worked...!!"
"Wow, Great advise there DB."
WTB: Hyosung bikes or going or not.
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my bad then, sorry.That was most unpolite, and I expect some form of apology.
Wrong. Just a single line of code is enough to kill hundreds, so under no circumstances it may be regarded as "slight". Spent a lot of time working in laboratories for processes that could easily cause a lot of damage (food processing plants, water supply, pharmaceutical ), and what I learned there is that a single comma can kill thousands, it is not to be regarded as "slight". Imagine I type the upper limit for pesticides in human drinkable water and I type 100.0 where it should read 1.000; that's a typo, a slight error by your account, but think about the consequences...
So please, even if you don't listen to anything else that is being written in this whole thread; please take this as number one rule: There are no slight errors when lives are involved.
my point was that the error when viewed independant of the consequences is small, when grouped with the consequences it is of course catstrophic
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
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There still seems to be a little confusion as to the devices purpose so ill try and explain it better.
It is meant as a learning aid, for use on the road, by giving an approximation on how much traction is available in good conditions, it is not supposed to replace rider experience or track days, experience will always be better than a gizmo. It is more there to give newer riders more experience from road riding.
That said i can see your point of view, and it may be that the traction the gizmo thinks is available is way off, or it may be that it can get pretty close. Without hard technical data evidence of how each part of the traction system contributes to the overal traction available, we cannot be sure that this wont work. This is why the next step is to do a far more in depth model to try and figure this out.
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
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Um funny thing you mention the gn250, it was indeed a gn250 i fell off. Got a VT250 now so sounds like i shud htfu and go do some e-stops.again i suggest the RRRS course, to practice your stopping in a safe way with proper instruction. front wheels lock with no warning in only (generally) two situations; ice, oil or wet paint, and when rider grabs the brakes suddenly rather than gradually. the third case is if you ride a GN250
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
Highway Biker
No amount of modelling on your bike will anticipate road conditions. And road conditions are the real limit; if you step over a oil split, traction will suddenly drop.
Now, if you listen to Steve up there (despite being a dangerous bastard he has some clever ideas from time to time), you'll see something that would be really helpful and that I would gladly attach to my bike. That tool may really help learners find their limits.
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the thing with oil spills and other similar road hazards is no amount of experience can allow you to ride through these at considerable speeds and avoid hitting the pavement, you MUST slow down before the corner. Why should having a device like this make people forget that?
Yes steves idea is a good one, and after reading the book recomended by quickbuck i think maybe i could do more in the way of rider analysis as well as traction predictions, i now propose (any many thanks for your inputs guys) a threefold system:
a DB light which goes off if you have overstepped a safety margin, calculated by wheel slip as well some other factors.
a riding "teacher" which analyses throttle and weight distribution etc to provide the rider with an indication of how well they were riding, with respect to maximising the available traction. (ie judging the weight distribution to be at correct 40/60% for example, and no harsh position shifts, steering moves, or throttle changes)
and finally an estimate of traction used with respect to good conditions(i still like this idea and it would use the same sensors anyway)
Finally ill post a quote i found in the book quickbuck recomend it, i quite like it and perhaps it is applicable here.
A German philosopher named Schopenhauer once stated. "All truth
passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed*. Second, it is violently
opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident*". Riding technology
has undergone this same process.
"A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal
Forum whore
firstly, i contest that fact through experience, and secondly, your original proposal was a meter to show how much grip was available to allow you to use 99% of it, which encourages users to do just that.
ok, yes oil can be a disaster, but many can handle it....
and get a rider with some offroad experience....
you've clearly already made up your mind on this, and the threefold system IS a vast improvement, so I think it's time we left you to it because clearly there isn't that much for KB to offer you until the next stage of the project.
good luck.
(oh, and all falsehoods pass through three stages too - ridicule, opposition, then through politics into law)
Forum whore
the more and more i think about this, to get ANY sort of accuracy you will have to have several models of the different suspension systems, and upon an install on ANY given bike, have to test and find the vaules to fit that model, and then retest as things like fork oil degrade etc etc....
or just find a direct way of measuring the force magnitute and direction at the tyre, in real time... this seems much easier to do, given a coefficient of a particular rubber on a surface, possibly employ a means of measuring tyre and road temperature, and maybe even use a vibration (or even optical or ultrasonic) measurement to determine the roughness of the surface to atleast distinguish between smooth seal, chip seal, and tar bleed, you could actually get some sort of accuracy. maybe even include a 'WET' mode for the user to select if conditions require it (or again use some sort of sensor)
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