Traction feedback device?

[smoky]

yeh i have thort of the whole looking at road during cornering, so it records the max traction usage and displays it for the next 5 secs after the corner.

That will work for the first corner coming out of Whangamata, one corner after the next, then what

The idea behind it is the rider is able to learn the limit of traction on normal corners, so will have a better understanding of the bikes limits during emergency situations, such as avoiding hazards like oil slicks or gravel spots.

For a beginner, by the time your 'thingy' tells them they've hit oil or ice they'll already have lost it and on their way to falling off
They shouldn't learn to ride by some kind of meter telling them how far to lean? they'll never get the feeling for the bike and the road.
And when do they stop looking 'thru the corner' or concentrating on riding to look at it.
For the rest of us - we'll all go out and try to get it to light up to its max all the time - and fall off by pushing too hard or watching it to see what it's doing instead the road ahead.

It just sounds like a distraction

I had a car with rear wheel drive, as you lost traction to the rear wheels the computer transferred up to 40% of the torque to the front wheels. Had a meter to show you what was going on - I just loved flooring it on a corner and watching the meter go off and getting the 4 wheels hard out loosing traction - cool fun
It didn't result in me driving safer

[bogan]

yep...read below



Doubt it...being a dumb arse...you had no thought of consequence's when you opened your mouth [typed...whatever] and then realised how stupid you were a posted this rubbish!! you are a almighty cock...and a rather daft one!!



What is not prepotional is avalible grip...there are differences between every single type of bike...the amount of available grip available and second mechanical grip created..and then tyre's...every one is different...and not to mention different rolling diameters at different speeds...

Then...there is the human factor...different riders balance different bikes in different ways...you have differing riding styles, which can create more grip that others...timid riders are stiff on a bike...and lessen grip because of...bad throttle control will alter grip massively...

You will have to be one mean physicist,with a lot of technical knowledge a world class suspension tech on speed dial, every manufactures spec's [the true ones no the brochure ones], be in the tyre manufactures back pocket and have incredible physic ability aswell.

I think that if a product could be made to do this...it would be a great 'Tool' but with so much data that is almost imposible to input into your model...you are on a hiding to nothing....

Great concept though

yeh, those issue are definetely the main ones, however the grip factor is able to be measured quite simply with a two axis force guage, so can be measured for whatever tyres are on there. Though it will change slightly as the tyres wear, riders would be encourages to ride with a decent safety factor, going at 99% of the traction is just asking for trouble!

for the suspension bit, the rider is expected to evaluate the road surface ans slow down accordingly if there is bumps in the corner, i beleive i have the expertise to pull the modeling of this off (currently engineering phd student at massey), and it is encouraging to hear that you think it would be a great tool if i do!

[CookMySock]

you are a almighty cock...and a rather daft one!!

LMAO!!!

maybe some training wheels that lock in position so when u get home ya can measure the angle u have been on

hehe, put them on cowshits' mouth perhaps, before his mother slaps him.

Steve

[bogan]

That will work for the first corner coming out of Whangamata, one corner after the next, then what


For a beginner, by the time your 'thingy' tells them they've hit oil or ice they'll already have lost it and on their way to falling off
They shouldn't learn to ride by some kind of meter telling them how far to lean? they'll never get the feeling for the bike and the road.
And when do they stop looking 'thru the corner' or concentrating on riding to look at it.
For the rest of us - we'll all go out and try to get it to light up to its max all the time - and fall off by pushing too hard or watching it to see what it's doing instead the road ahead.

It just sounds like a distraction

I had a car with rear wheel drive, as you lost traction to the rear wheels the computer transferred up to 40% of the torque to the front wheels. Had a meter to show you what was going on - I just loved flooring it on a corner and watching the meter go off and getting the 4 wheels hard out loosing traction - cool fun
It didn't result in me driving safer

hmm, i had not considered people misusing it. my thingy is not sposed to tell people if theres oil on the road, they have eyes for that! I think that begineer riders will still get a feel for the road with the system, as they will still feel all the bikes movements and get "feel" from the road surface.

[LBD]

What is not prepotional is avalible grip...there are differences between every single type of bike...the amount of available grip available and second mechanical grip created..and then tyre's...every one is different...and not to mention different rolling diameters at different speeds...

Then...there is the human factor...different riders balance different bikes in different ways...you have differing riding styles, which can create more grip that others...timid riders are stiff on a bike...and lessen grip because of...bad throttle control will alter grip massively...
I think that if a product could be made to do this...it would be a great 'Tool' but with so much data that is almost imposible to input into your model...you are on a hiding to nothing....

Great concept though

What he says, plus....

It seems the concept is only allowing for rear wheel traction, nothing for the front.

And from BMWST.... "a device that measures lateral acceleration is all that is required....Lean angle is directly proportional to lateral forces."

Cornering is a balance between gravity and lateral forces so any forces measured would still be acting down through the centerline of the bike and it would be difficult to seperate the differing forces into their component vectors

[cowpoos]

yeh, those issue are definetely the main ones, however the grip factor is able to be measured quite simply with a two axis force guage, so can be measured for whatever tyres are on there.

Tyres with different side wall profiles increase the speed of the engine as the the bike is lent over more aswell...which at the time might alter the centrifugal force at the time.

for the suspension bit, the rider is expected to evaluate the road surface ans slow down accordingly if there is bumps in the corner,

I think you grossly underestimate the suspension factor...

[BMWST?]

this is correct for crude modeling (and is where the prototype system is currently up to), but it does not take into account speed, rider weight distribution, or incline changes, the final system i propose does.

the lateral forces measured will be directly related to speed and rate of turn.they are inexticably linked

[bogan]

think its getting a bit off topic, the tech specs dont really need discussing, ive done significant research and am fairly sure that i can make this thing, the finer points such as sidewall radius/suspension action do not need to be sensed, as they can be approximated. This post is about whether there would be enough demand for this sort of device for me to continue developing it, as the next stage gets quite expensive.

[cowpoos]

think its getting a bit off topic, the tech specs dont really need discussing, ive done significant research and am fairly sure that i can make this thing, the finer points such as sidewall radius/suspension action do not need to be sensed, as they can be approximated. This post is about whether there would be enough demand for this sort of device for me to continue developing it, as the next stage gets quite expensive.

I would like some more info on how you will approximate the finer points..what factors and how they would be over come..if it were as simple as you believe it is..I would be impressed if you could produce this device..and it were 90% + functional...as I would expect it to be thought of by motorbike racing techs already.

Besides that...the use of the device would be a good indicator of changes to bike set up for racers...so not just releying on laptime...as you could potentially download different grip levels reached on different corners of a race track...and immensly help technicians set up a bike...and a rider realise his/her potiential..

[YellowDog]

95% of the time this will be of no value however you could use it to give yourself that ability to make it completely useless.

This would be a great device for new riders and may lead to less accidents.

[LBD]

think its getting a bit off topic, the tech specs dont really need discussing, ive done significant research and am fairly sure that i can make this thing, the finer points such as sidewall radius/suspension action do not need to be sensed, as they can be approximated. This post is about whether there would be enough demand for this sort of device for me to continue developing it, as the next stage gets quite expensive.

This is not getting off topic, if you want peoples informed opinion, then you need to allow for that opinion to be educated and intellengent. At this stage, while I agree with the concept, when you make comments like "As they can be approximated" then my opinion sways toward there being to much guess work to may this concept workable...

You need to go from being "Fairly Sure" to 100% positive you can make this work or IMO you will be in for a lot of heartache.

[bogan]

I would like some more info on how you will approximate the finer points..what factors and how they would be over come..if it were as simple as you believe it is..I would be impressed if you could produce this device..and it were 90% + functional...as I would expect it to be thought of by motorbike racing techs already.

Besides that...the use of the device would be a good indicator of changes to bike set up for racers...so not just releying on laptime...as you could potentially download different grip levels reached on different corners of a race track...and immensly help technicians set up a bike...and a rider realise his/her potiential..

by 90% functional, i assume you mean accuracy of +-10%, i think i could achieve this. For race applications +-10% is far too inaccurate, 1% is too inaccurate so i do not think it is feasable to develope a this system to the level required for racing.

as for the finer points you ask about, there are heaps and heaps of these, and i would have to outline the whole system on a public forum (i do want to make some cash form this idea if possible :P) to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway.

[bogan]

This is not getting off topic, if you want peoples informed opinion, then you need to allow for that opinion to be educated and intellengent. At this stage, while I agree with the concept, when you make comments like "As they can be approximated" then my opinion sways toward there being to much guess work to may this concept workable...

You need to go from being "Fairly Sure" to 100% positive you can make this work or IMO you will be in for a lot of heartache.

im sure everyone can grasp the idea of what the device is supposed to do, if i cannot make it to that quality i would never release it, as it would do more damage than good. So people can make an opinion on this ideal device say a traction accuracy (of either wheel) of +-10%

the difference between fairly sure and 100% sure, is the difference between going to do, and have done.

[Usarka]

Don't sell it in the states!

Too many variables.

Apart from the condition of the road, tyres, surface contamination etc, there's also the issue of throttle, lean and brake control. Ham fisted inputs to either provide less traction than smooth ones.

What does 50% traction mean? If a 50% reading assumes a slow smooth opening of the throttle, it'd be quite easy to loose it at an 80% reading.

[LBD]

im sure everyone can grasp the idea of what the device is supposed to do, if i cannot make it to that quality i would never release it, as it would do more damage than good. So people can make an opinion on this ideal device say a traction accuracy (of either wheel) of +-10%

the difference between fairly sure and 100% sure, is the difference between going to do, and have done.

Mate IMO you are on very dangerous ground with this as good as the idea may be. Say I have one of your devices and are cornering 9% from the egde, but within the +_10%. I notice your gadget is telling me I can corner harder so I push it that extra 10% and have an off, are you prepared for the legalities that would follow?

"to explain it to you, and those without a good grasp of physics probly wouldnt get it anyway."
Yup we are all a pack of dumb arses here, so you didn't really want our opinions then?