View Poll Results: Think this is a good idea? (read post first)

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  • Hell yes, gimme one!

    10 13.51%
  • Yes, but only if produced cheaply enough

    9 12.16%
  • Undecided

    9 12.16%
  • Only if the manufacturers include it on bikes

    5 6.76%
  • No, a complete waste of time

    41 55.41%
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Thread: Traction feedback device?

  1. #121
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    Bogan, I admire your courage......

    BUT I voted NO.
    A few reasons: First and foremost, a rider (especially a noob) has yo keep their eyes out of the cockpit!
    Secondly, as a rider I can process that sort of stuff MUCH better.
    Thirdly, if I couldn't process that stuff better I should either get some training, or give up motorcycling.... and operating ANY equipment around other lives...

    I am the type of personality who loves gadgets, but I can not see a need for this one.

    Take a read of Twist Of The Wrist 2 by Keith Code, and see if your little box is still viable.
    If it is, then best of luck to you.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickbuck View Post
    Bogan, I admire your courage......

    BUT I voted NO.
    A few reasons: First and foremost, a rider (especially a noob) has yo keep their eyes out of the cockpit!
    Secondly, as a rider I can process that sort of stuff MUCH better.
    Thirdly, if I couldn't process that stuff better I should either get some training, or give up motorcycling.... and operating ANY equipment around other lives...

    I am the type of personality who loves gadgets, but I can not see a need for this one.

    Take a read of Twist Of The Wrist 2 by Keith Code, and see if your little box is still viable.
    If it is, then best of luck to you.
    sounds a lot like a book ive got anyway (Total Performance, high performance street riding techniques by parks books). Being an engineer and part of a few automation projects i kind of have the idea that computers can do things better than humans, in this case is it a matter of what sensors/complexity of program/computer hardware is needed to do this. The lack of technical analysis of motorcycle traction means I will have to write a modeling program from scratch (or give up, not my style). From there i should be able to figure out how viable it is.

    Ill start another thread once i get a good way through the modeling program to see if you guys want to give me feedback on it.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogan View Post
    Being an engineer and part of a few automation projects i kind of have the idea that computers can do things better than humans, in this case is it a matter of what sensors/complexity of program/computer hardware is needed to do this.
    Yeah.... Airbus think so too....
    Oh and Boeing..... A couple of Emirates 747 pilots "retired" soon after a little incident in Melbourne last year...
    Edit: Wouls help if I got my story straight.... It was in face an Airbus A340 that the Emerates Pilots were in....
    The Boeing incident was a different time, and a different place belonging to Singapore Airlines....
    Similer damage though.

    To be fair to the computer in that case it was doing what it was told.
    I believe Airman-ship should have picked up the error on takeoff though....
    Why do they call "V One & V Two?"...

    Boeing's fix?
    Add another computer to check the first one.
    Mine would be to ass a weight sensor to the undercarriage.... but then I'm just a Tech, not a design engineer.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickbuck View Post
    Yeah.... Airbus think so too....
    Oh and Boeing..... A couple of Emirates 747 pilots "retired" soon after a little incident in Melbourne last year...

    To be fair to the computer in that case it was doing what it was told.
    I believe Airman-ship should have picked up the error on takeoff though....
    Why do they call "V One & V Two?"...

    Boeing's fix?
    Add another computer to check the first one.
    Mine would be to ass a weight sensor to the undercarriage.... but then I'm just a Tech, not a design engineer.
    im unfamiliar with the incident you speak of, but i have see the autolanding plane that just overshoots the runway by about a km and "lands" in some trees, a slight programming error by the looks of it!

  5. #125
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    fuck all the haters/ knockers, this would be great to see and something i'd love to use. All the best with it.

  6. #126
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    good on ya for trying even if i don't agree with it, just remember to legally cover your ass in case some idiot bins and tries to sue - i'm in my 3rd year of my engineering (mechatronics) degree so very keen to see this modelling effort either way

    Quote Originally Posted by quickbuck View Post
    ...
    Boeing's fix?
    Add another computer to check the first one.
    Mine would be to ass a weight sensor to the undercarriage.... but then I'm just a Tech, not a design engineer.
    +1

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogan View Post
    im unfamiliar with the incident you speak of, but i have see the autolanding plane that just overshoots the runway by about a km and "lands" in some trees, a slight programming error by the looks of it!
    Here's One

    Here's Why

  8. #128
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    WOW - just finished reading the whole thread. some concerning issues here:

    Dangerousbastard has a good idea with the "yes, that was close" light.

    Bogan:
    What riding experience do you have? Seeing you own a dirtbike I thought you would understand how utterly unpredictable traction can be, but i think you really need to consider that the only times this device could really help a rider is when they've hit something unexpected and unaccounted for. this is why i like DB's slip detecting "don't do it again, son" idea.
    Also, a 600cc or litre sportbike are VERY unforgiving beasts. Dunno if you've tried riding them but tyre temp and road condition are VERY important factors if you ever find the balls and road required to ride one properly. obviously they aren't learner bikes, but we're all learners - even the racers among us.


    How much experience with learners have you had? Over my decade of riding and moreso the last few years with the UofA motorcycle club, I have had the pleasure (and horror) of teaching/training many "Learner" riders and observing other's doing the same.
    Allow me to generalise:
    Many learners are overly cautious, and will never need an "ideal traction" indicator; these learners ususally crash because something unexpected happened and/OR they left their comfort zone, panicked, and crashed where in most cases the bike was perfectly capable of getting them out of trouble. They eventually learn/grow out of it to become your average, competent motorcyclist, but occasionally they develop into the other type of learner....
    The fearless and/or oblivious learner; The fearless are the guys that will TRY to max out your detector, then blame YOU for the inevitable crash. they are also the guys (usually young) that honestly have no concept of how dangerous a motorcycle is, often even after a serious injury. They will often ride a bike far outside their skill and licence level and if doing so they are nearly always uninsured. Many call them Squids. They cannot be taught as they do not listen, and watching them "teach" is a pretty difficult thing to watch, especially if the trainee is the cautious type who will forever more be afraid of bikes.
    The oblivious also don't realise how dangerous a bike (or more often, a scooter... and much more commonly a car or SUV) is and crash due to simply not thinking/looking when they change lanes or enter wet off camber corners. Seen those scooter riders in the city wearing miniskirts, tank tops and open helmets, weaving around their lane while txting? perfect example. If they had a traction meter they either wouldn't use it, OR would follow it religiously despite the wet mud and gravel on an off camber corner.
    So based on my prior experience, in my honest opinion, this device will cause more injuries than it prevents.
    DB's slip detecting "don't do it again, son" idea will help ALL of the above riders in some way.

    Your device does not and likely can not work on idiots, and everyone who isn't an idiot has more important things to be learning; very few riders practice emergency stops (yourself included judging by your prior admission)

    myself, I started as a cautious learner as a kid on a dirtbike, but became fearless upon learning the road rules. After a few years of narrowly avoiding death I've calmed down to become a reasonably responsible rider (for which i have KB, rider training, watching other people bin and spending 3 years close to 100 demerit points to thank). I can honestly not think of ONE time when your device would have helped me - learning how to crash/control a dirtbike and my shift of attitude is imho the only reason i'm still here today.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by trademe900 View Post
    fuck all the haters/ knockers, this would be great to see and something i'd love to use. All the best with it.
    grow up you selfish little boy!
    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Given the short comings of my riding style, it doesn't matter what I'm riding till I've got my shit in one sock.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorbyclist View Post
    but we're all learners - even the racers among us.....
    WOW - Top post Motorbyclist.
    Apparently I have to send Rep to somebody else before I can give it to you again.....
    Your experience sounds very familiar to me, and after some time cheating death I too have come to realise that bit i have quoted from you....

    Over all I think you have summed it up.

    If bogan ever read Twist of the Wrist, he will realise that everybody has "Survival Reactions" and there is no amount of gizmo's and flashy lights that will over come them.
    And as you point out there also those that have no SR.... Yep, for them it is "Always Somebody Else's Fault".....

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorbyclist View Post
    WOW - just finished reading the whole thread. some concerning issues here:

    ...

    learning how to crash/control a dirtbike and my shift of attitude is imho the only reason i'm still here today.
    That post is great.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogan View Post
    im unfamiliar with the incident you speak of, but i have see the autolanding plane that just overshoots the runway by about a km and "lands" in some trees, a slight programming error by the looks of it!
    Something that can potentially kill hundreds is not a "slight" programming error.

    With that approach to safety, it's no wonder you claim you can tell me how far I am from a disaster you admit you have no means of anticipating.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickbuck View Post
    If bogan ever read Twist of the Wrist, he will realise that everybody has "Survival Reactions" and there is no amount of gizmo's and flashy lights that will over come them.
    Well yes and no. Over the past few months I have been teaching myself to trust my tyres. It's been scary letting the bastard tip in well past my comfort zone, and fighting the reaction to pull it upright again. Imagine my surprise when I clipped my boot on the inside of a highly-cambered (inwards!) corner - do you think I stood the bike up? Damn straight I did. Which of my survival reactions will really help me to survive? Some will, some won't. ALL of my newbie reactions won't.

    Newbie bikers "survival reactions" are often what kills them, and as you say, its pretty much impossible to ignore these little scares without doing something daft, such as standing the bike up, or throttling off and grabbing the front brake, and I suspect these types of errors are what kills many riders on the roads.

    So where to for newbies who want to learn? Tuition on the track? sure. But this box has the potential to sit there and snarl at them when they do it wrong. It also has the potential to grin at them when they get it right.

    Watch this guy get it wrong. And die. At 1:27 watch the brain-lock followed by the brains' refusal to bar push. Warning: This is not a family video clip.




    Steve
    "I am a licenced motorcycle instructor, I agree with dangerousbastard, no point in repeating what he said."
    "read what Steve says. He's right."
    "What Steve said pretty much summed it up."
    "I did axactly as you said and it worked...!!"
    "Wow, Great advise there DB."
    WTB: Hyosung bikes or going or not.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerousBastard View Post
    Well yes and no. Over the past few months I have been teaching myself to trust my tyres. It's been scary letting the bastard tip in well past my comfort zone, and fighting the reaction to pull it upright again. Imagine my surprise when I clipped my boot on the inside of a highly-cambered (inwards!) corner - do you think I stood the bike up? Damn straight I did. Which of my survival reactions will really help me to survive? Some will, some won't. ALL of my newbie reactions won't.

    Newbie bikers "survival reactions" are often what kills them, and as you say, its pretty much impossible to ignore these little scares without doing something daft, such as standing the bike up, or throttling off and grabbing the front brake, and I suspect these types of errors are what kills many riders on the roads.




    Steve
    EXACTLY why they are called "Survival Reactions".
    The quotes mean they are NOT REALLY Survival Reactions.

    You too, Sir, should read the book.
    Seriously.
    I mean most of your post covered off some very good points contained within it.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorbyclist View Post
    WOW - just finished reading the whole thread. some concerning issues here:

    Dangerousbastard has a good idea with the "yes, that was close" light.

    Bogan:
    What riding experience do you have? Seeing you own a dirtbike I thought you would understand how utterly unpredictable traction can be, but i think you really need to consider that the only times this device could really help a rider is when they've hit something unexpected and unaccounted for. this is why i like DB's slip detecting "don't do it again, son" idea.
    Also, a 600cc or litre sportbike are VERY unforgiving beasts. Dunno if you've tried riding them but tyre temp and road condition are VERY important factors if you ever find the balls and road required to ride one properly. obviously they aren't learner bikes, but we're all learners - even the racers among us.


    How much experience with learners have you had? Over my decade of riding and moreso the last few years with the UofA motorcycle club, I have had the pleasure (and horror) of teaching/training many "Learner" riders and observing other's doing the same.
    Allow me to generalise:
    Many learners are overly cautious, and will never need an "ideal traction" indicator; these learners ususally crash because something unexpected happened and/OR they left their comfort zone, panicked, and crashed where in most cases the bike was perfectly capable of getting them out of trouble. They eventually learn/grow out of it to become your average, competent motorcyclist, but occasionally they develop into the other type of learner....
    The fearless and/or oblivious learner; The fearless are the guys that will TRY to max out your detector, then blame YOU for the inevitable crash. they are also the guys (usually young) that honestly have no concept of how dangerous a motorcycle is, often even after a serious injury. They will often ride a bike far outside their skill and licence level and if doing so they are nearly always uninsured. Many call them Squids. They cannot be taught as they do not listen, and watching them "teach" is a pretty difficult thing to watch, especially if the trainee is the cautious type who will forever more be afraid of bikes.
    The oblivious also don't realise how dangerous a bike (or more often, a scooter... and much more commonly a car or SUV) is and crash due to simply not thinking/looking when they change lanes or enter wet off camber corners. Seen those scooter riders in the city wearing miniskirts, tank tops and open helmets, weaving around their lane while txting? perfect example. If they had a traction meter they either wouldn't use it, OR would follow it religiously despite the wet mud and gravel on an off camber corner.
    So based on my prior experience, in my honest opinion, this device will cause more injuries than it prevents.
    DB's slip detecting "don't do it again, son" idea will help ALL of the above riders in some way.

    Your device does not and likely can not work on idiots, and everyone who isn't an idiot has more important things to be learning; very few riders practice emergency stops (yourself included judging by your prior admission)

    myself, I started as a cautious learner as a kid on a dirtbike, but became fearless upon learning the road rules. After a few years of narrowly avoiding death I've calmed down to become a reasonably responsible rider (for which i have KB, rider training, watching other people bin and spending 3 years close to 100 demerit points to thank). I can honestly not think of ONE time when your device would have helped me - learning how to crash/control a dirtbike and my shift of attitude is imho the only reason i'm still here today.
    riding experience has been last 8ish years half dirt half road, no track. Have had some loss of traction incedents on gravel/white lines, though wouldnt say ive ever pushed my bike close to the limits of traction for normal circumstances.
    Basically i came up with the idea after talking to my uncle who learnt to ride a few years ago, he was saying he had no idea how close to the limits of traction he was, which means he wasnt well equiped if it cam to an emergency evasion type situaion. But he didnt want to try pushing it in case he was actually too close to those limits and fell off. I agreed on all these points, and i thort i can probly make a device which gives an approximation of these limits. I realise the accuracy will be significantly less than what most of you hope for but i think for learners it will help increase their confidence and make them better riders. I have had a bit of experience with learner, and have hit the "fear barrier" myself as i thort i was going too fast around a corner, luckily there was sufficient room and i didnt run off the road, i realised after i could have leaned over more and been a lot safer, this device will help riders overcome the "fear barrier".

    To summarise, this device will show learner what the bike can do so they have a larger comfort zone.

    I realise traction is quite unpredicable, due mainly to the roads surface, by showing how much is available in good condition, i hope riders will scale accordingly for bad conditions, if not DBs dont do that again light will hopefully make them slower next time.
    Personally im not big on the idea of slip detecting, but a lot of you seem to like it and i have not much experience with this so i will try and include it.

    If a rider is stupid enough to get a safety device like this and try to max it out, i will be somewhat unsympathetic to the resulting crash. Thats like seeing a high voltage sign then grabbing the wires thinking "im tough i can take it"

    with regard to me practicing e-stops, im a bit wary of these as the fall i had there was absolutely no warning that the front locked up, one instant was slowing down quickly, next i was on my ass. So i dont want to practice e-stoping as ill probly ass off again cos i dont know where the traction limit is... u see where im going here!

    final note, this device isnt for everybody, if you cant think of a time it would be useful then its not for you, but there has been enough intrest that i feel it warrents furthur investigation/developement.

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