To Robert Taylor and other MNZ bashers

[Shaun]

Actually Robert I think such an idoitic post doesn't require any comment or defence from you.

100% agreed Cleve. Get back in the lab DR, and print some more money, appaerently, it is NOT fair to work very hard, and get a coffee or 2 for it

PS, thanks for the comments re working with you and Dennis/Ohlin's Race tech, it is actually my plessure to work through you again, you know that I know how much testing and development work goes on in your lab and head

[idleidolidyll]

yawn,

fallacy arguments are so easy eh; much easier than intelligent debate.

Of course its OK to make a profit. The point is that it is also important to know whether people have a financial stake in decisions as human nature (amongst the right wing in particular) indicates that those profits will often be the primary motivator at some cost to the group, activity or organisation.

another socialist versus fascist debate

In every article people read, every 'scientific paper etc, they should ALWAYS try to learn who paid for the work to be done and whether they profit from it.
Not to do so will always leave you open to exploitation and manipulation.

Phamaceutical companies, alcohol companies, tobacco companies, oil companies: all have provided us with examples where their motivation to make money overrode their desire to see the best done for their customers and the public: it isn't any different on a smaller scale.

the argument isn't that anyone has definitely or deliberately influenced decisions in favour of profit over sport and riders, the argument is that if you don't understand the motivations of all those who push for change; you'll eventually get shafted

so if you want to bleat, try to make it intelligent rational debate instead of fallacy; i can spot that shit from 100 paces

[Shaun]

MODS

Can you please move the above dribble to the RANT and RAVE section where it belongs, in fact, how about deleating the whole thread, it is just an attack thread really, and belongs in another forum

Time to move on again

[idleidolidyll]

mods, can you check out Shauns rubbish posts in this thread and move the lot to the sin bin. They are almost all junk mail.

Shaun, if Mr Taylor wants to attack people, he must understand that he will receive the same back.
The points made are entirely valid in light of his reply to my post and as a guide for those wanting transparency inside MNZ

[idleidolidyll]

Shaun,

Don't you also profit from your involvement in racing?
That's OK, you are welcome to. However people should be aware that you do.

Are you part of the organisation? I know you were running for a position.
If so, those whom you represent deserve to have all the facts including whether certain decisions would result in extra profit and whether those same decisions are balanced toward the sport or toward the businesses profiting from the sport.
Nothing wrong with decisions that BOTH make profits AND progress the sport but the sport should always come first.

As I noted in the first post; Paul was a senior manager in business before taking up his role at MNZ. I very much doubt he earns more money at MNZ. That given, it seems we can exclude the personal profit motive from Pauls decisions. If you know otherwise, please elucidate.

Don't you think the members who elect representatives deserve to know the facts behind their representatives and perhaps the motivations for making or pushing certain decisions?

[idleidolidyll]

Since you have chosen to speak for " Our PAID Staff member" Your Brother,( Which I truly respect)
as our CEO, how much sponsorship dollars did he manage to attrack into the sport in the last 12 months?

When I say HE. I mean him directly, NOT what Paul Stewart etc obtained.

Shaun, I belive that's a very narrow focus from a huge set of available paths. Sponsorship is only ONE way to grow the sport. If you focus only on the money you lose sight of the riders.

The sport was BIGGER in NZ BEFORE the money came. If a shift in direction AWAY from narrow minded focus on money actually ends up bringing back the riders and the crowds; that's exactly what the sport needed.

Paul, and indeed any member of MNZ, should not be judged based on the dollars they collected, only on the good they did for the sport.

[scracha]

MODS
Can you please move the above dribble to the RANT and RAVE section where

C'mon Shaun, aside from some real gem's, a lot of your posts are pure $hite and don't get moved to r&r. Between rants Idle makes some valid points.

MODS
it belongs, in fact, how about deleating the whole thread, it is just an attack thread really, and belongs in another forum

Nah, this thread is giving great entertainment...oops...promoting serious debate.

Dr Bob, everyone who was at Manfield last weekend saw how hard Dennis and you were working. Also noted that you guys were pretty much everywhere, not just spending all your time with the 'big boys'.

[Shaun]

Shaun, I belive that's a very narrow focus from a huge set of available paths. Sponsorship is only ONE way to grow the sport. If you focus only on the money you lose sight of the riders.

The sport was BIGGER in NZ BEFORE the money came. If a shift in direction AWAY from narrow minded focus on money actually ends up bringing back the riders and the crowds; that's exactly what the sport needed.

Paul, and indeed any member of MNZ, should not be judged based on the dollars they collected, only on the good they did for the sport.

Narrow focus? NO mate, FACT!

The sport is actaully dying ( NZ Champs status) at the moment in case you had not noticed, so job well done by who ever our paid staff members are, as well as, was there any money found to promote the sport by our Paid staff members?

Narrow minded focus on money, who has that? Some people who are buisness people, do push there barrows with there product, but there product if fantastic, as is there support of the product, and there passion to make it better, as a rep of said product, I too have NO problem with making a living from a part of it, that is how the world works mate, and I know you know that.

This thread has turned into a personell bitching match, and should be deleated

[Shaun]

C'mon Shaun, aside from some real gem's, a lot of your posts are pure $hite and don't get moved to r&r. Between rants Idle makes some valid points.


Nah, this thread is giving great entertainment...oops...promoting serious debate.

Dr Bob, everyone who was at Manfield last weekend saw how hard Dennis and you were working. Also noted that you guys were pretty much everywhere, not just spending all your time with the 'big boys'.

Fair enough dude, I do have an exscuse though, I AM A MORON

[merv]

Idle I might read your posts more if you didn't use that hard to see colour.

[idleidolidyll]

Shaun, the post i referred to WAS all about money; your post

again; if the sport was bigger in the 70's and 80's BEFORE the money came, should we perhaps look backward to fix todays problems?

I remember you on that shitty 2nd hand 400 at Taupo. It wasn't competitive but it allowed you into the sport and you didn't finish last. If you'd had to spend up large to race bikes at the start, would you have achieved what you did? Would you even have been in the sport? We need those grass roots riders most of whom have bugger all money to spend.

i raced jappas for the first few years but the old regime soon pissed me off.
i switched to BEARs and was much happier. BEARs was formed as a reaction to the old organisation and to bring out all the old Nortons, Triumphs and bevel Ducatis etc that had been put in the garage because expensive jappas were taking over and the cheap used bikes had no classes where they could be even a little competitive. BEARs, particularly in Chch, became the biggest success story for years on that basis.

I was elected to the helm of the National Organisation for a while and during my time we had to face up to the money versus number of riders thing. We felt that the new 8 valve Ducatis racing in the proddy classes were going to kill the class and arranged a hiatus for a few years in which those bikes COULD race but only in the 'F1' class of BEARS. That decision wasn't taken by the committee, it was taken by a vote at each club and ratified by the committee (a kind of referenda). Some hated the idea but in the end it worked relatively well by BOTH allowing expensive bikes a class AND allowing those racing cheaper used bikes (the sports main support base) to also have a fair and reasonable class.

Those were the heady days when Paul Pav, Glen Williams, Bill Biber etc wowed the crowds in the premiere classes and crowds eclipsed those watching jappas race.

Is there a lesson to be learned for today? Yes, I reckon there is. They say you ignore the past at your peril, I say they are correct.

[NDORFN]

Do you guys ever find time between argueing to ride?

[idleidolidyll]

Idle I might read your posts more if you didn't use that hard to see colour.

I'm an orange kinda guy. The colours are there to be used so i do.
If you are really interested enough you'd click the dark side.

sorry buddy, i'm a crusty old fart and i like the orange (see bike details top right)

[idleidolidyll]

Do you guys ever find time between argueing to ride?

at least 500km a week, sometimes 700km; you?

[Drew]

Jesus people.

Thsi thread was started by someone taking shit personally, on behalf of his elected brother.

Anybody who takes an elected position, and doesn't have thick enough skin to take criticism, is a fuckin moron. That said, the family of said official need to take it on the chin, since one has to assume we didn't elect a fuckin moron.

I fail to see where all the offence has come form anyway. Robert Taylor is NOT the kind of guy, to give criticism not constructive.

When I first went racing, I didn't understand suspension and the gains from upgrading it, I did exceptionally well on a stock SV against a field of them with decent gear, the only guy in front of me was Glenn Williams on a well fucked with F3 bike. I started to question RT on everything he said, HEAPS of cock smokers around this place saw me to be attacking Robert and red repped me. Robert however answered my questions, never once took it personally, and generally showed me he was not just trying to drum up business.

Fuck it, why bother, most of the people on here wouldn't have the balls to man up and say half this shit face to face, implying the lack the courage of their convictions.

Idol, you are nothing more than an antagonist. An educated one perhaps, but a shit stirer all the same.