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Thread: Issue with motorway onramp transit lanes - 2018

  1. #1
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    Issue with motorway onramp transit lanes - 2018

    Hi all, long time occasional lurker, first time poster. I apologise if my searching hasn't been up to scratch. I found This thread from back in 2009, but I'm having issues with the police and NZTA about motorway onramp transit lanes.

    I was pulled over in April for using the T2 lane on the SH16 (northwestern motorway) Great North Road citybound onramp. The initial stated cause of the traffic stop was for not having the required number of passengers. When I received the written warning I raised it with police. This initial cause was then scrubbed but changed to the fact that motorcycles are not allowed to use the lane due to not being on the sign.

    I have involved the NZTA, and an investigation has supposedly been raised, but with no resolution after almost two months it's starting to seem like it's ground to a halt, and I'm still sitting here with a black mark on my licence.

    I'm not about to stop fighting this, as this issue seems to have occurred and been resolved before. As motorcyclists we have a strong vested interest in ensuring the road rules are enforced properly for our safety. I don't want any other motorcyclist to be ticketed for using lanes they seem to be fully entitled to.

    After two months there are a lot of details to my story but unless they are relevant I'll leave them out in the interest of brevity. There have also been some interesting comments from the police, such as their belief that "most motorcyclists do not use the transit lanes, which would indicate to them that most seem to know the rules".

    I would very much appreciate if it anyone would have any resources that would assist me in trying to convince the police that motorcyclists are permitted to use the transit lanes, or convince the NZTA to conclude their investigation and respond to the police. Otherwise if anyone has any contacts in either organisation that would be interested in assisting in my case I would love to get in touch with them. I understand the difficulty of this however, as I do not want to put anyone in a compromising position of having to argue with their colleagues.

    Nga mihi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colinspocket View Post
    Hi all, long time occasional lurker, first time poster. I apologise if my searching hasn't been up to scratch. I found This thread from back in 2009, but I'm having issues with the police and NZTA about motorway onramp transit lanes.

    I was pulled over in April for using the T2 lane on the SH16 (northwestern motorway) Great North Road citybound onramp. The initial stated cause of the traffic stop was for not having the required number of passengers. When I received the written warning I raised it with police. This initial cause was then scrubbed but changed to the fact that motorcycles are not allowed to use the lane due to not being on the sign.

    I have involved the NZTA, and an investigation has supposedly been raised, but with no resolution after almost two months it's starting to seem like it's ground to a halt, and I'm still sitting here with a black mark on my licence.

    I'm not about to stop fighting this, as this issue seems to have occurred and been resolved before. As motorcyclists we have a strong vested interest in ensuring the road rules are enforced properly for our safety. I don't want any other motorcyclist to be ticketed for using lanes they seem to be fully entitled to.

    After two months there are a lot of details to my story but unless they are relevant I'll leave them out in the interest of brevity. There have also been some interesting comments from the police, such as their belief that "most motorcyclists do not use the transit lanes, which would indicate to them that most seem to know the rules".

    I would very much appreciate if it anyone would have any resources that would assist me in trying to convince the police that motorcyclists are permitted to use the transit lanes, or convince the NZTA to conclude their investigation and respond to the police. Otherwise if anyone has any contacts in either organisation that would be interested in assisting in my case I would love to get in touch with them. I understand the difficulty of this however, as I do not want to put anyone in a compromising position of having to argue with their colleagues.

    Nga mihi.
    It's my understanding that if it don't hav e a M/cycle onit, you should not be thee, Rastus or Scummy may be better ewquipped to answer your query.
    Every day above ground is a good day!:

  3. #3
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    Good on ya for sticking up for yourself.

    Not a lawyer, but...

    Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004 1.6

    transit lane means a lane reserved for the use of—
    (a)
    the following (unless specifically excluded by a sign installed at the start of the lane):
    (i)
    passenger service vehicles:
    (ii)
    motor vehicles carrying not less than the number of persons (including the driver) specified on the sign:
    (iii)
    cycles:
    (iv)
    motorcycles:
    (v)
    mopeds; and
    (b)
    electric vehicles (if specifically included by a sign installed at the start of the lane)
    Also seems like it was discussed thoroughly here:
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...t=transit+lane

    More importantly this post and attached PDF - signed written proof that motorcycles can use transit lanes
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...76#post1913576



    A̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶I̶ ̶s̶w̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶I̶'̶v̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶v̶i̶d̶e̶o̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶p̶u̶t̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶N̶Z̶T̶A̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶s̶i̶m̶i̶l̶a̶r̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶l̶i̶c̶i̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶l̶a̶n̶e̶s̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶-̶ ̶B̶u̶s̶ ̶l̶a̶n̶e̶s̶ ̶v̶s̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶c̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶l̶a̶n̶e̶s̶ ̶e̶t̶c̶.̶ ̶C̶a̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶l̶o̶o̶d̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶.̶ ̶ ̶I̶t̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶'̶v̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶F̶a̶c̶e̶b̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶T̶u̶b̶e̶,̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶s̶u̶r̶e̶.̶



    EDIT: FOUND THE FUCKER! Go to 0:22. It explicitly says "You can ride in Transit lanes, that's T2 or T3 lanes".





    CASE CLOSED! BUY ME A BEER!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseye View Post
    It's my understanding that if it don't hav e a M/cycle onit, you should not be thee, Rastus or Scummy may be better ewquipped to answer your query.
    You on the beers Mark?


    Quote Jan 2020 Posted by Katman

    Life would be so much easier if you addressed questions with a simple answer.

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    Not living in the grand metropolis I have had no need to know the legalities of riding in a T2 lane.

    This Auckland Transport link says you can.

    This NZTA link says you can.

    Ok. Neither link references any legislation but based on the content it would appear as if it is perfectly legal to ride a motorbike in a T2 lane unless the sign says motorbikes are not allowed.

    Nothing specific in the Road User Rule however I would point out this definition -

    Quote Originally Posted by Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004

    transit lane means a lane reserved for the use of—
    (a)
    the following (unless specifically excluded by a sign installed at the start of the lane):
    (i) passenger service vehicles:
    (ii) motor vehicles carrying not less than the number of persons (including the driver) specified on the sign:
    (iii) cycles:
    (iv) motorcycles:
    (v) mopeds; and
    (b)
    electric vehicles (if specifically included by a sign installed at the start of the lane).
    If you read what it says in the NZTA link you could interpret it as has been done here where it says any vehicle using a T2 lane has to have two passengers, including motorbikes. That to me rules out bicycles completely apart from tandems which cannot be the intent. It would also prohibit empty buses from using it as well which can't be right. The definition in the RUR makes it quite clear that passenger service vehicles, cycles, motorcycles and mopeds can use them and motor vehicles carrying not less than the number of persons specified on the sign.

    Can understand the frustration but based on the two first links I would have to say both AT and NZTA are suggesting it is perfectly ok and the RUR makes it clear that it is in a legal sense, unless the sign specifically excludes motorbikes. That would be more than enough for me to argue the point. Remember, just being a policeman does not make you an expert on any kind of legislation. You could point out the above definition to them and see what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berries View Post
    Remember, just being a policeman does not make you an expert on any kind of legislation. You could point out the above definition to them and see what happens.
    Best comment yet.

    Basically, there are too many rules for everyone to know everything. The problem arises when a police officer thinks they lnow the rules, but they only know msybe 95% of them.

    Motorcycle specific rules don't get much publicity, as motorcyclists are a minority most folk don't give much thought to.

    Around 50% of the motorcyclists using bus lanes in Christchurch think they are breaking the rules, so don't just blame everyone else.

    As far as I know, without dredging the legislation, having a wee motorcycle picture on the sign isn't a legal instruction.

    I'll have a fun trawl through the legislation later this morning.

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    Wasn't there some issue with ownership of the roads where these are?, council said yes to MC's but motorways not?

    I don't pay any attention to the difference and use the transit lane if it suits.

    Given the raft of information /\ /\ I'd print it all out send it to the petty bureaucrat ( probably in Wellinton), with a letter saying that its

    perfectly

    legal to do it and you will not be paying the fine as the Policeman was wrong.

    If it goes to court ( which I would probably do for this) if its not clear then its not very enforceable.

    I have to deal with these Auditer type fuckwits on a daily basis and the sooner you shut them down the better.

    Note: what kind of pathetic cop would pull over a motorcycle in Auckland traffic...., go solve a burglary, the hundreds of drivers playing with

    cell phones or something useful, this is the sort of

    thing that loses them credibility.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    Best comment yet.

    Basically, there are too many rules for everyone to know everything. The problem arises when a police officer thinks they lnow the rules, but they only know msybe 95% of them.

    Motorcycle specific rules don't get much publicity, as motorcyclists are a minority most folk don't give much thought to.

    Around 50% of the motorcyclists using bus lanes in Christchurch think they are breaking the rules, so don't just blame everyone else.

    As far as I know, without dredging the legislation, having a wee motorcycle picture on the sign isn't a legal instruction.

    I'll have a fun trawl through the legislation later this morning.
    They have a manual...called the Road Code. If there is nothing in there about motorcycles using the Transit Lane then they should not be taking it upon themselves to be Judge and Jury. Maybe they should employ backpackers too.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    They have a manual...called the Road Code. If there is nothing in there about motorcycles using the Transit Lane then they should not be taking it upon themselves to be Judge and Jury. Maybe they should employ backpackers too.
    Police don't enforce the Road Code. The Road Code is someones interpretation of the legislation.

    Police enforce the legislation. And it's a quagmire.

    Anyway, back on topic.

    https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/r...es-2004/#part2

    If you have a look at the legal definition of Transit Lane, it specifically includes motorcycles. So if a lane is a Transit Lane, unless the sign specifically excludes a particular class of vehicle, they are for the use of

    Transit lane means a lane reserved for the use of the following (unless specifically excluded by a sign installed at the start of the lane):
    (a) passenger service vehicles;
    (b) motor vehicles carrying not less than the number of persons (including the driver) specified on the sign;
    (c) cycles;
    (d) motorcycles.

    Trust this clarifies.

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    This is the beginning of said Transit Lane on the SH16 (northwestern motorway) Great North Road citybound onramp

    Beginning of Transit Lane

    and a closer view of the sign:

    Close-up of sign

    The sign indicates: Transit Lane for T2, trucks 3.5t [I presume that means over 3.5t] and EV which according to the legislation Berries quoted above EVs are excluded unless there's a symbol to show they are included. The quoted legislation states that motorcycles are included as well as cycles and mopeds, however as this is a motorway the later two are forbidden to use a motorway and the cycles are excluded by the sign which accompanies the variable speed limit sign:

    Prohibition signs


    I'm no legal person but I think that the OP has very good case against the police issued ticket as the legislation says he may [has permission] to use that particular lane.


    Where there has been confusion in the past, and I don't believe it has been correctly sorted even now, is over "Bus Only Lanes" where the sign says just that but according to the legislation, if I remember it correctly, the sign also needs to have smaller signs attached which prohibit over vehicles from using the bus only lane which are normally allowed by the legislation to use a Bus Lane. There was discussion about this point the other year on here.

    BTW, Rastus in your new job, Congrats on that - well done, do you know if there is an equivalent position in the Auckland area? If there is, then this would certainly be something that person could look into and have the signage corrected both for AT controlled roads and NZTA/Auckland Motorways controlled roads - the Bus Only Lanes is one that could be a starting point.

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    I'm astonished that any Auckland Police officers would even pull you over for using the T2 Motorway onramp lane on a motorcycle, as long as you weren't speeding.
    You're definitely permitted to use them on a motorcycle, unless it's a lane that specifies "buses only" such as on the North Shore "Northern Busway" (EDIT, or unless it is a lane that specifically excludes motorcycles and is clearly signposted with that exclusion).
    All the links have been posted above which show this to be the case.
    Motorcycles are allowed to use T2 lanes, T3 lanes, and bus lanes.

    "Rules for using bus and T2 or T3 transit lanes

    General rules

    • Vehicles must not stop or park in any bus or transit lane unless they are permitted to use the lane or the vehicle is an emergency vehicle (ambulance, police car, fire engine etc.) that is being used in an emergency and is operating its beacons.
    • Do not turn left out of a junction into a transit lane and travel for longer than 50 metres. Wait for a break in traffic on the all user lane before turning left.
    • If operating times are not specified on lane signage, a lane operates 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
    • If operating times are specified, the lane operates as a normal lane (no restrictions) outside those specified times.


    Bus lanes

    • Only for use by buses, bikes, motorbikes and mopeds during the restriction times (except the Northern Busway, which is for buses only).
    • Vehicles are not allowed on a bus lane during active periods.


    T2 or T3 Transit lanes
    Reserved for the use of these vehicles (unless specifically excluded by lane signage):

    • Motor vehicles carrying not less than the number of people (including the driver) specified on the sign, eg: T2 is for any vehicle that has 2 or more occupants and T3 is for any vehicle that has 3 or more people.
    • Passenger service vehicles (including taxis, regardless of whether or not they are carrying passengers).
    • Bicycles.
    • Motorbikes.
    • Mopeds."


    -Source: https://at.govt.nz/driving-parking/w...transit-lanes/

    and for any who might complain that the above is just an advisory, and not the legislation, here is the actual legislation (Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004):

    "transit lane means a lane reserved for the use of—
    (a) the following (unless specifically excluded by a sign installed at the start of the lane)

    (i) passenger service vehicles:

    (ii) motor vehicles carrying not less than the number of persons (including the driver) specified on the sign:

    (iii) cycles:

    (iv) motorcycles:

    (v) mopeds; and


    (b) electric vehicles (if specifically included by a sign installed at the start of the lane)"


    -Source: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regul...html#DLM303055

    The rules are pretty darn clear. Can you PM me the QID of the officer who issued you the infringement offence notice in the first place?

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    Addendum: For Auckland riders info. Did you know we're also allowed to go on those "B" bus only lights too? The legislation states that any vehicle legally allowed to use the bus lane, ie: buses, motorcycles, bicycles; is also allowed to use the lights controlling them. I had forgotten about that, but it makes sense.

    7 Clause 3.6 amended (Traffic signals in form of T or B)

    Replace clause 3.6(5) with5) If any of the following persons are lawfully using a bus lane, this clause applies to the person in the same way that it applies to the driver of a bus:

    (a) the rider of a cycle, moped, or motorcycle:
    (b) the driver of an electric vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    Best comment yet.

    Basically, there are too many rules for everyone to know everything. The problem arises when a police officer thinks they lnow the rules, but they only know msybe 95% of them.

    Motorcycle specific rules don't get much publicity, as motorcyclists are a minority most folk don't give much thought to.

    Around 50% of the motorcyclists using bus lanes in Christchurch think they are breaking the rules, so don't just blame everyone else.

    As far as I know, without dredging the legislation, having a wee motorcycle picture on the sign isn't a legal instruction.

    I'll have a fun trawl through the legislation later this morning.
    If the cunts don't know the rules they have no business writing tickets!

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    Don't forget that the police force doesn't exactly attract the best and brightest. In my experience cops are generally thin-skinned, petty, moronic dickheads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike.Gayner View Post
    Don't forget that the police force doesn't exactly attract the best and brightest. In my experience cops are generally thin-skinned, petty, moronic dickheads.
    I suppose the simplest thing would be to ignore the troll but I've had a reasonable amount to do with the police both professionally and socially. My experience has been the complete opposite. Really good people who do a job that most of us wouldn't want to do or couldn't do. I'd suggest that that there are fewer shitheads among them than either the general public or KB in particular.

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