Mnz agm

**BJT666** · 17th May 2009, 20:19

The imput from everyone into the issues facing MNZ on this website has been fantastic.

How many of you will be attending the WORKSHOPS and the AGM next weekend in Wellington.

Unfortunately with the demise of the OLD style Conference, there is really no forum for people to voice their opinions, other that on sites like this one.

Thanks for that KB

However next weekend, there will be WORKSHOPS on all sections of OUR Sport.

So if you will be unable to attend, maybe you could post your thoughts here, so those of US, who will be attending will have a wider set of views to work on during the discussions.

JIM T

**k14** · 17th May 2009, 20:42

One aspect of the rules has always been an annoyance to me and that is the red flag rule. Many a time I have been in a race where a red flag has been pulled out due to someone crashing. The current practice is to go back a lap and award the points based on the standings then. Most of the time the person that caused the red flag gets awarded the position they were in before their accident.

In auzzie and some other countries the red flag causer is excluded from the results. Personally I cannot see why this rule couldn't be bought in to NZ racing. The other thing is that this actively encourages a rider to "play dead" when he/she has a minor off so that the red flag is pulled out and they get points which is very unfair imo. Someone should not be rewarded for crashing!

Just a thought anyway.

**Biggles08** · 17th May 2009, 21:04

Originally Posted by k14

One aspect of the rules has always been an annoyance to me and that is the red flag rule. Many a time I have been in a race where a red flag has been pulled out due to someone crashing. The current practice is to go back a lap and award the points based on the standings then. Most of the time the person that caused the red flag gets awarded the position they were in before their accident.

In auzzie and some other countries the red flag causer is excluded from the results. Personally I cannot see why this rule couldn't be bought in to NZ racing. The other thing is that this actively encourages a rider to "play dead" when he/she has a minor off so that the red flag is pulled out and they get points which is very unfair imo. Someone should not be rewarded for crashing!

Just a thought anyway.

That exact situation happened to me this weekend at the Actrix Winter series Round 1 at Taupo...Brian Wood had a pretty bad off and was in 2nd position and was down...the race was flagged and he ended up getting his second position. I agree it seems unfair and not a natural outcome. I was sure I got a 3rd but ended up with only a 4th :-(

**cowpoos** · 17th May 2009, 21:21

Originally Posted by BJT666

The imput from everyone into the issues facing MNZ on this website has been fantastic.

While this site is looked upon by SOME non members as a herd of idiots and armchair experts...I think a couple of things need to be realised by outsiders.

1) We mostly know who each other are on here...and have real names and are involved in many degrees with the sport.

2) Non members of kiwibiker in the racing community are the minority I would have to say.

3) We almost have the top ten kiwi riders in each class as members. [that sort of experience and insight is worth alot!!]

4) This website has heaps of industry leaders and members...and if not members...its well known they read and watch in the backround.

This website is the largest gathering of people in motorcycling in new Zealand...that gather and discuss all things motorcycling.

So...dismissing a voice this big is just plan daft really!!

Jim T....you have been very wise to join here and listen to concerns.

Its a shame others havn't...I would prefer to here about the other side of the coin. Learn reasoning,etc... its hard to pass a personal opinion/judgement on something with out the whole story...

**Racey Rider** · 17th May 2009, 21:46

That - You must walk away to safety and leave your bike on the track - rule was interesting at the Vic club R1.

So a guy bins it in quaifing.... and has to leave his bike there on the exit of a fast corner. The bike may be still rideable - but he has to leave it there, stuffing his qualifying session all the more. But now it's stuffing everybody else's qualifying as well as the yellow flag before it is waved for the duration of the session. I guess some riders will care not and ride through there just as fast. Others will slow to be careful - loosing grid placings.

Then theres the issues of the next bike that might also come down in that corner. Now they're sliding toward the other left on track bike. Could end up meat the the metal sandwich.

Surely it would make more sense for the first crashed rider to pick a window of opportunity when no bikes are coming through to remove the bike? It's a risky sport, but you gota look out for others don't ya?.

Would be interested to hear some discussion about this.

**Burrt Badger** · 18th May 2009, 11:03

Think about the rider who crashes because of someone else's actions, be it riding style or lack there of, be it an intentional fairing clash, or an unintentional clash of fairings for that matter, be it a back marker who alters their line just as they are being passed or oil dropped by another crashed competitor or a blown engine. You want to remove ANY rider who crashes, from the result of the race???? Yeah, that sounds fair to ALL.

**Biggles08** · 18th May 2009, 12:04

Originally Posted by Burrt Badger

Think about the rider who crashes because of someone else's actions, be it riding style or lack there of, be it an intentional fairing clash, or an unintentional clash of fairings for that matter, be it a back marker who alters their line just as they are being passed or oil dropped by another crashed competitor or a blown engine. You want to remove ANY rider who crashes, from the result of the race???? Yeah, that sounds fair to ALL.

Welcome to racing Burt Badger...that happens in races all the time and they ALWAYS get a DNF regardless of who is at fault...this rule is the only time they actually get points for causing a red flag...so...the moral of the story from my point of view is if I crash, I'll stay laying in the middle of the track and get the race red flagged...then get up and jump into the next race!?!? Really fair huh!?

As Brian has already said, he is as suprised as anyone that he still came 2nd in the race I'm refering to. He unfortunately had a bad off that caused the red flag and was truely in a bad way (I know I saw the end result of the crash) and correctly the marshalls called the race....BUT, thats not the issue I have. IMHO the race results should have excluded Brian as he had a DNF. It would have done this had he not been truely hurt and had managed to get out of the way for the race to continue for the final two laps....see the problem Burt or do I need to spell it out more?

**wharfy** · 18th May 2009, 12:15

Originally Posted by Racey Rider

That - You must walk away to safety and leave your bike on the track - rule was interesting at the Vic club R1.

So a guy bins it in quaifing.... and has to leave his bike there on the exit of a fast corner. The bike may be still rideable - but he has to leave it there, stuffing his qualifying session all the more. But now it's stuffing everybody else's qualifying as well as the yellow flag before it is waved for the duration of the session. I guess some riders will care not and ride through there just as fast. Others will slow to be careful - loosing grid placings.

Then theres the issues of the next bike that might also come down in that corner. Now they're sliding toward the other left on track bike. Could end up meat the the metal sandwich.

Surely it would make more sense for the first crashed rider to pick a window of opportunity when no bikes are coming through to remove the bike? It's a risky sport, but you gota look out for others don't ya?.

Would be interested to hear some discussion about this.

It makes sense for the rider to get off the track and stay off.
Getting hit by another bike is going to REALLY hurt - both of you.
Also if someone has gone down they may not be thinking clearly when they stand up.

The marshals have to make a judgment call as to whether the bike is a hazard worthy of a yellow flag or a RED flag or no hazard at all.

At VMCC meeting if you crash you are not allowed to re-join, and the rider picking up their own bike might forget that in the heat of the moment.

Riders who ignore the yellow flag and don't take care are being stupid, riders that ignore the yellow flag and overtake are cheating, rider that don't see the yellow flag should be more aware (which I know is easy to say but hard to do during a race).

**koba** · 18th May 2009, 12:36

Originally Posted by Racey Rider

That - You must walk away to safety and leave your bike on the track - rule was interesting at the Vic club R1.

So a guy bins it in quaifing.... and has to leave his bike there on the exit of a fast corner. The bike may be still rideable - but he has to leave it there, stuffing his qualifying session all the more. But now it's stuffing everybody else's qualifying as well as the yellow flag before it is waved for the duration of the session. I guess some riders will care not and ride through there just as fast. Others will slow to be careful - loosing grid placings.

Then theres the issues of the next bike that might also come down in that corner. Now they're sliding toward the other left on track bike. Could end up meat the the metal sandwich.

Surely it would make more sense for the first crashed rider to pick a window of opportunity when no bikes are coming through to remove the bike? It's a risky sport, but you gota look out for others don't ya?.

Would be interested to hear some discussion about this.

Yeah, I took that as "Don't rejoin the race"
'Park it' As Mel said, so thats not saying dont get the bike out of the way if it's in a dangerous spot and it is safe to get it.
It saying park it up and dont get back on the track.
It has been the case at all the Vic Club round since Derek Hill and Phil Harrison both died in that collision last year at the Puke round of the nationals.
In light of all that the rule makes perfect sense to me.

**wharfy** · 18th May 2009, 12:38

Originally Posted by Biggles08

Welcome to racing Burt Badger...that happens in races all the time and they ALWAYS get a DNF regardless of who is at fault...this rule is the only time they actually get points for causing a red flag...so...the moral of the story from my point of view is if I crash, I'll stay laying in the middle of the track and get the race red flagged...then get up and jump into the next race!?!? Really fair huh!?

That would be immoral, you could do that and possibly a couple of times no one would even know, but if you did (especially in a club series) you would be an arsehole. There is a subltle difference between the LETTER of the law and the SPIRIT of the law.

The red flag is to protect riders, the "no fault" rule is the fairest way of protecting an innocent riders points - lacking the presence of a TV ref to make rulings on who did what to whom.

Like most rules these have evolved over time, admittedly I am a comparative newbie to racing but I can't think of a fairer way.

**koba** · 18th May 2009, 12:44

Originally Posted by BJT666

So if you will be unable to attend, maybe you could post your thoughts here, so those of US, who will be attending will have a wider set of views to work on during the discussions.

JIM T

Good call, on joining KB.
I'm eligable to vote.
I have no idea about much of the organisation or people involved so would hate to cast a vote in ignorance.
I think the more topics are discussed in an easily available media (i.e. here) the less apathy we will see.

I look foward to learning more about whats what so when I do decide to vote it is from an informed position.

- Malcolm Nabbs

**White trash** · 18th May 2009, 12:58

I do indeed intend on attending Jim.

Looking forward to catching up with a few people and better understanding how our ellected organization works.

**Burrt Badger** · 18th May 2009, 13:30

Biggles, I agree with Wharfys comment!!!!!.
For your info the following is from the MotoGP Regulations, straight off the FIM website. Is this the addition you require?????

1.25.2. At the time the red flag is displayed, riders who are not actively
competing in the race will not be classified.
Within 5 minutes after the red flag has been displayed, riders who
have not entered the pit lane, riding on their motorcycle, will not be
classified.

As for your "Playing dead", you fall into the chasm of Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion. It is a very sharp knife edge you walk on making a comment like that in a public forum, where I am pretty sure a number of Officials and your fellow competitors will note your attitude.

**k14** · 18th May 2009, 14:58