Porkgate

[MSTRS:Me]

I wonder what it is about me that you find it necessary to attack everything I post on this subject. Could it be because I'm not rabidly for/against the farming practices of a sector of the pork industry - just maybe you think you see a chance to swing my 'vote'? Not going to happen old son.
I say again...pigs are not like other types of farmed animals, and as such require differing practices. Whether crates are good or bad may be a matter of perception. You have yours and I have mine.
Things that are done 'for the good of...etc' which many see as bad are not unusual. Cheesecutters, anyone?

[Phurrball]

I wonder what it is about me that you find it necessary to attack everything I post on this subject.

IMHO quoting and rebutting with reasoned argument is not attack. You are not specifically a target, but as I reply to you point-by-point, you keep replying to me in kind. I was not aware this was a problem. BTW: You are included in my previous thanks for worthy contributors to this thread (just to clarify )

Could it be because I'm not rabidly for/against the farming practices of a sector of the pork industry - just maybe you think you see a chance to swing my 'vote'? Not going to happen old son.

Not even trying. I can sense a lost cause when I see one You have your opinion, I have mine.

I'm also arguing using a set of facts few are aware of. I am in a good position to comment on the law governing animals in New Zealand having studied under NZ's foremost academic expert on the subject as part of my LLB. It's worth clicking through to his personal page for commentary on this very subject that is far more impressive than my humble posts.

And I say again: The following are not opinions. They are immutable facts:

I say again...pigs are not like other types of farmed animals,

Correct. The operative parts of the Animal Welfare Act 1999 do not apply. This means you can treat pigs in ways that could have you fined or jailed were you to treat another animal that way.

and as such require differing practices.

Sure. Some practices relating to pigs are only exempt from punishment by a deeming provision in the law that makes it 'all OK'. That's what a powerful farming lobby can do. That's what happens when economic considerations inform welfare law. We would not accept that for people. It is a logical non sequitur that it is OK for animals.

Whether crates are good or bad may be a matter of perception. You have yours and I have mine.

Yes. BAD and ILLEGAL for any other animal. Fine for a pig. That's not perception either, that is statute and regulatory law. People can make what they will of our animal welfare laws based on that particular hypocrisy.

Things that are done 'for the good of...etc' which many see as bad are not unusual. Cheesecutters, anyone?

OK, if we're going to play at emotive analogies: You feel strongly that cheesecutters are a 'bad idea' (I do too). I feel strongly that all animals should have the same protection at law.

Cheesecutters - economic interests > protection of vulnerable road users.

Animal Welfare 'Code exceptions' - economic interests > protection of animals with no voice of their own.

Just like cheesecutters disproportionately affect certain classes of road user, the codes of welfare disproportionately affect certain classes of animals.

The codes allow certain classes of animal to fall outside the umbrella of the law in an insipid penumbra of partial protection.

Logically, it's like saying "It's OK if we only torture the prisoner a little bit to get a confession" when torture is generally banned. That's what our animal welfare laws allow. Certain animals do not get the same protection just because economic considerations in the industry allow practices that are banned in many other western countries - practices which are illegal if applied to any other animal.

I'm not getting at you personally. I'm getting at the hypocrisy in our law and society, and at the overall lack of awareness of practices such as the one at issue (One area where SAFE do a good job).

I'm hardly likely to clock you (or anyone) if you eat bacon in front of me. I'll generally leave people alone to eat their carcass in peace unless they open the door to debate. The way forward as I see it is to pursue law reform and education, not smash butchers' shop windows and antagonise.

That said, I have no qualms if public or regulatory pressure mean pig farmers make a little less profit per Kg because economics are removed from the animal welfare equation - as is morally and philosophically correct.

As the following link proves, it can be viable to farm pigs without crates. The farmers comment that no NZ pig farmer uses porcine growth hormone even though it is not illegal, and they could make more profit if they did use it. This is down to public pressure. I see the same happening to the practices at issue in this debate.

This week's RNZ National Country Life has a feature on (commercial, non-organic) pig farming. Interesting listening from the perspective of the farmers themselves as interviewees. I can't say I liked everything I heard either (In case anyone thinks it's a hippie fest)

I've said enough here I think. Thanks for the positive comments and rep folks. I'm advocating for those without a voice here, and I long for the day when our fellow animals have at lest some degree of rights and legal standing (as opposed to the 'welfare' compromise). Cheers, Ross.

[MSTRS:Me]

... it can be viable to farm pigs without crates...

And if that is so, bring it on.
In the meantime, as long as any pig farmer uses sow crates/stalls within the letter of the law, in keeping with good animal husbandry for the period of time covering piglet birthing/nursing - then that's fine with me.

[Hitcher]

No form of farming will ever be acceptable for the Hans Krieks of this world. Next he will be complaining about lack of weather protection for sheep and cattle and the working conditions of farm dogs, exploitation of race horses, the biodiversity evils of domestic cats and the abuse of domesticated dogs in the name of "fashion".

I suspect he may well ignore tail-docking of dogs for a while, as he needs their owners' contributions to ban circus elephants and duck shooters.

[Pussy]

While everyone is arguing here... I might just duck off down to the supermarket and get a dirty big pork roast for tea...

[MSTRS:Me]

While everyone is arguing here... I might just duck off down to the supermarket and get a dirty big pork roast for tea...

Can you smell ours? Is gooood.....

[Pussy]

Can you smell ours? Is gooood.....

Sorry, J... I can't!

The beautiful aroma from my you beaut 2kg roast that's been on for 45min is masking it!

[peasea]

No form of farming will ever be acceptable for the Hans Krieks of this world. Next he will be complaining about lack of weather protection for sheep and cattle and the working conditions of farm dogs, exploitation of race horses, the biodiversity evils of domestic cats and the abuse of domesticated dogs in the name of "fashion".

I suspect he may well ignore tail-docking of dogs for a while, as he needs their owners' contributions to ban circus elephants and duck shooters.

Not to mention the harsh conditions that carrots in Ohakune face.

[Pussy]

Not to mention the harsh conditions that carrots in Ohakune face.

The Brussels Sprouts have a worse time of it

[peasea]

The Brussels Sprouts have a worse time of it

I sense a vegolution coming on.

[Finn]

Have you guys tried the pork test yet?

Well I did and here are the results. Last Sunday I chucked a large piece of dead pig in the oven. This was about half the price of a "free range" pig so I assume it was one of the caged varieties. Bloody delicious!

Then last night, in goes a $49 free range piece of pig. Bloody delicious! However, it wasn't better than the caged variety and may in fact have been slightly tougher.

My conclusion... Pork is delicious. Thanks to SAFE and our left wing media for reminding me of this.

[Hinny]

You have to be careful about eating too much pork.
Especially that imported stuff from countries where they use growth hormones.
It can have unexpected results.

[Gareth123]

Not sure if this has been bought up but I have to say it anyway...

Driving through Christchurch the other evening about 530pm. Saw some protesters protesting sow cages on Moorhouse ave. I couldn't help but think that the girl dressed up as a pig, who was jumping up and down and waving her arms in the air, trying unsucessfully to get people to toot their horns to show support, should have stayed away from the bacon sandwiches herself.

She didn't need to dress like a pig, she already looked like one.

[NDORFN]

Don't buy bacon if you don't agree with the way they're farmed. It's as simple as that. We can force them to label whether or not the bacon is free-range by boycotting, like we did with eggs, then the choice will be of the individual consumer. Vote with your wallet! I personally don't mind paying twice as much for free-range eggs, nor would I mind paying twice as much for free-range bacon. In a country where people fork out billions in ever increasing petrol, alcohol and ciggarette tax annually, it's hard to believe that we wouldn't be willing to fork out extra, not for the benefit of government coffers or capatalist gain, but for the benefit of an animal who tastes great and who's only misgiving is a title association with the worst breed of animal imaginable, higway patrol officers.

[Hitcher]

Sigh. Use your wallet to enforce meaningless labelling. That sounds like a brilliant plan.

• Caution, may contain traces of nuts.
• Organic
• Free range
• GM free
• Made in China

All equally nonsensical descriptors that offer no certainty or warranty for the prospective purchaser, yet "standards" that ultimately make food more expensive.

Buy a farm. Grow your own.