Porkgate

[Phurrball]

You seem to miss the fact that it is being said is that sows (in NZ) are in those crates for between 4-6 weeks to allow their young to suckle without being killed by the mother.

Why are 50% of the industry able to do without? [Their own stated figures] To claim welfare reasons for the crates is specious in my opinion. The crates are 'needed' because of farming practices.

Where has it been claimed that those sows spend all their life in there?

I never said that. No one did. It is entirely mandated by the code of welfare. I think Hitcher posted a link to those. The point is (again) that complying with the code breaches the welfare provisions of the act but for the deemed compliance via the code.

I'm sure that 'overseas' it happens, but here? What's not being said is whether those sows are bred year-round, or just once. Gestation is 16 weeks and I assume that they are not kept 'too' confined during that time. I also guess it's possible that they are bred twice a year, with a 4 week stand-down between each pregnancy/suckling.

[Emphasis added]

'Assuming', 'guessing' and thinking that 'NZ has great animal welfare' is what the pork industry would love everyone to do, and probably explains their reticence to allow cameras into their farms. It's all in the codes. The codes specifically allow pork farmers to breach welfare standards that would apply to any other animal. That's my biggest problem.

I don't follow that the judiciary are apparently feeble in their sentences, yet you have the utmost respect for them. Which is it?

Oh, and who exactly are you sniping at...

I'd need to start quoting cases, and while I could, it would be tedious for all. It's a major part of the Animals and the Law paper at AU law school. I'm also not about to name judges without putting up whole cases and allowing people to make up their own minds. That could be unwise. I'm sniping at the sentences, some comments in cases, and the overall attitude of the legal/governmental/regulatory community that 'it's only an animal'.

I don't have much choice but to respect the judiciary. It's all part of the hierarchy (and I also do respect the judiciary). It's healthy to disagree with some legal decisions. That's why parliament is sovereign, there is an appellate jurisdiction, academic commentary, and the Law Commission... reform has to happen somehow.

That's this week...give it time

What, like the free range eggs that are now growing in proportion and are prominently labelled in our supermarkets?

This won't go away. There may be other distractions, but the media is powerful, and it informs the even-more-powerful 'consumer' and as eggs illustrate...attitudes are changing.

[Hitcher]

Beware the spin associated with phrases like "free range" or "barn reared" or "organic" for that matter. They're marketing terms, with specious definitions, depending on who is doing the telling. When I hear terms like that, call me a cynical reactionary old fart, but I smell bullshit.

[Trudes]

It is fairly easy to tell a "cage egg" from a "free range egg" compare them sometime and you should (unless you are blind and have lost your sense of taste) be able to tell the difference, colour, consistency, taste.

[MSTRS:Me]

Why are 50% of the industry able to do without? [Their own stated figures] To claim welfare reasons for the crates is specious in my opinion. The crates are 'needed' because of farming practices.
It has been stated by the Pork Mktg Bd fella that as few as 10% actually rely on those sow cages


I never said that. No one did.
No, they haven't...it's just the inference that it may be so.

'Assuming', 'guessing' and thinking that 'NZ has great animal welfare' is what the pork industry would love everyone to do, and probably explains their reticence to allow cameras into their farms. It's all in the codes. The codes specifically allow pork farmers to breach welfare standards that would apply to any other animal. That's my biggest problem.
Assuming etc is all that most of us have to go on. The media included. SAFE are not to be trusted because they have an agenda against meat producers, and the farmers won't let 'us' see in their sheds even though we wouldn't understand what we are seeing. And pigs are what they are...not the same as any/all other animals. Every kind of farmed animal requires different practices - offsetting welfare against production.


I'd need to start quoting cases, and while I could, it would be tedious for all. It's a major part of the Animals and the Law paper at AU law school. I'm also not about to name judges without putting up whole cases and allowing people to make up their own minds. That could be unwise. I'm sniping at the sentences, some comments in cases, and the overall attitude of the legal/governmental/regulatory community that 'it's only an animal'.
You see, that's my problem. You both 'slate' and 'respect' those who sit in judgement. A bit $ each way...

What, like the free range eggs that are now growing in proportion and are prominently labelled in our supermarkets?

This won't go away. There may be other distractions, but the media is powerful, and it informs the even-more-powerful 'consumer' and as eggs illustrate...attitudes are changing.
See below. Marketing spin. Unless you physically go to the farm, wander out into the paddock, select your chosen victim, capture, kill and process the critter right there, you will never know whether the label is 100% true per the implied source.

Beware the spin associated with phrases like "free range" or "barn reared" or "organic" for that matter. They're marketing terms, with specious definitions, depending on who is doing the telling. When I hear terms like that, call me a cynical reactionary old fart, but I smell bullshit.

Exactly, young man.

[Hitcher]

It is fairly easy to tell a "cage egg" from a "free range egg" compare them sometime and you should (unless you are blind and have lost your sense of taste) be able to tell the difference, colour, consistency, taste.

I feel an evening's entertainment coming up. We can do the egg blind tasting before the beer blind tasting. I have $100 that says you can't repeatably tell the difference.

[Trudes]

I feel an evening's entertainment coming up. We can do the egg blind tasting before the beer blind tasting. I have $100 that says you can't repeatably tell the difference.

I'll tell you what, I'll cook you two omelets, one with cage eggs (which you will have to bring with you as I won't buy those shitty pale watery things) and one with free range eggs. You'll see and taste the difference. And if you don't then I will start to seriously question your connoisseur tastes. Oh, and I'll have a Speights.

[Hitcher]

Oh, and I'll have a Speights.

You misunderstand the rules, Dear Heart. You have to tell the difference between a Speight's, a Waikato, a Mac's Gold and an Export Gold.

And I'm more than happy for you to come egg shopping with me too in case you think I've cheated.

[Trudes]

You misunderstand the rules, Dear Heart. You have to tell the difference between a Speight's, a Waikato, a Mac's Gold and an Export Gold.

And I'm more than happy for you to come egg shopping with me too in case you think I've cheated.

I wouldn't know the difference between the beers, I only drink Speights but (and there's no way you will get me anywhere near a Swamp water Waikato draught!!)
(It's funny, cause we all know it's never going to happen!!)

[ynot slow]

6 pigs per hectare in open,how many crates can you get on 6 hectares,as they say in the USA do the math.

Crates are not the be all and end all,pens are available as well,and used.Mates father used to raise pigs,they had a pigsty on the property,was a good business for them,he used to get reject cheese from his work for feed,they used pens holding sows and piglets,and open pens as well with 5 or 6 sows in,they quickly got rid of trouble sows or seperated them.

[cave weta]

Dunno if you and Lias are trying to draw attention to yourselves in the same way as Sidewinder and the mormon few but you've got mine.

I'm no greenie townie either, I've killed and skinned animals but they led a good life, died quickly and it was for a purpose. I've got a tough as nails mate who's happens to be a butcher and he despairs at the way kiwi's treat their animals. I'm VERY wary of anyone who couldn't care about animal welfare. There's something not right in the head about the sort of person who can watch another living thing suffer unnecessarily.

Sad really.

the above is special message to Lias who has just given me my first ever red rep and nasty comment for standing up for the rights of animals.

[Quasievil]

the above is special message to Lias who has just given me my first ever red rep and nasty comment for standing up for the rights of animals.

I invite all who read this to visit his profile pic and gaze upon this cold heartless man....

What shall we do burn him?

[cave weta]

What shall we do burn him?

Honestly Quasi- I started this and now I sit back and wonder why- all it has done is bring to the surface, attitudes that show up individuals as being cold heartless and calous. how can some one who will pat a dog or stroke a cat treat other animals with such public hatered? what message is this to give to your children?

[Virago]

the above is special message to Lias who has just given me my first ever red rep and nasty comment for standing up for the rights of animals.

I invite all who read this to visit his profile pic and gaze upon this cold heartless man....

Okay, done it. That'll learn 'im...

[scracha]

the above is special message to Lias who has just given me my first ever red rep and nasty comment for standing up for the rights of animals.

You've probably just made his week.

I invite all who read this to visit his profile pic and gaze upon this cold heartless man....

He's quite purty tho'. Make him "squeeeeel like a pig" Mr Weta

[Quasievil]

Honestly Quasi- I started this and now I sit back and wonder why- all it has done is bring to the surface, attitudes that show up individuals as being cold heartless and calous. how can some one who will pat a dog or stroke a cat treat other animals with such public hatered? what message is this to give to your children?

mate this is KB, here is a heads up for you dude, I doubt anything on this whole thread outside the "proper posts" has any depth to it.
Its all a big laugh bro, dont take it personally..........really dont.