ESE's works engine tuner

[41juergen]

Thanks' to everybody to be welcome!
@TZ: I really enjoy all your open discussions and the idea with EFI. Would be nice to see how far you can get in a racing application!

@ Frits: bedank u well, my dutch is getting a bit rusty now... Unfortunately my wife has only 3 brothers, so may be not very interesting for you. But as we both were born in a small city named Wesel close to Arnhem she joined several times when we visited the different race tracks in the Netherlands (she also might now what Tarzanbocht is ). And as she works in the accountant department of a big company, her calculation to buy the simu software was driven by costs savings.

About the roll over, yes agree will just play with some more blow down to see what can be reached.

@Wob: thanks for lighten me up a bit more. I had in mind that something like TL=850 mm should work fine for most of the RZ and Banshee applications. So tried the 930mm and I was getting better. Will try 950mm to see what the outcome is. I also changed the comb eff to 0,86 but only got less max. power but still the detos in the lower range. So there must be another mismatch there. Yam1 for the scavenging model is ok?

[TZ350]

Thanks Larry, Pico Injectors, Billet Carb/Throttle body, looks great.

Do you have to time the injection cycle to coincide with any particular part of the induction cycle?

With two injectors the same, I guess you run one for low speed then both together for when the engine is making power?

I have some Pico Injectors but thought they were a bit slow, but I guess not if they are working for you.

[TZ350]

Page 1070 links list to go here.

Everyone talks about the axial angle on A,B and C but never any mention of the axial for the roof and floor of the aux. got any suggestions ? tried to look at the rsa but couldn't really tell much from the odd angle photos i've seen

The roof axial angle should be about 20° down; the floor could use a bit more downward angle, but that would land you in the A-transfers, so you'll have to be careful there.
The radial position angle of the RSA's aux. exhaust ducts is quite radical; past mid-cylinder. But the radial direction angle is less severe.



The drawing hows that the flanks of the aux ducts start with 20° less than the radial position angle, irrespective of the radial position angle that you may choose. And don't overdo it or you might get massive short-circuiting from the A-ports to the exhausts, even when using RSA-type closed-end piston pins.

Riley Will of BRC is already achieving good results with EFI and so is Roland Holzner of Modena engines in Italy. The experimental 24/7 engine does not seem to care about the obligatory 30 mm inlet restriction.

Frits has posted some pictures of a working 24/7 setup.

A few of us have these systems now. I thought it might be useful to have a separate thread to swap information. I'm just starting with mine on a 4 stroke twin that will eventually be turbo or supercharged, Rob has his 2 stroke single with triple injectors coming along, and Sketchy with his supercharged Honda clone.

Link to the start of Speedpros Ecotrons EFI thread.



EFI Kawasaki BigHorn running transfer port injection and E85. Runs to 8,000 rpm

Some more Youtube clips of transfer port injected 2T's
http://youtu.be/eleqBGvOM4M
http://youtu.be/hOGZ5llowoU
http://youtu.be/1YG9ko8-Nwk
http://youtu.be/UEQli7nuak4
GerbilGronk is worth a Youtube search.

I have been working on a EFI transfer port injection system of my own but trying to take the concept to 12,500rpm.

Attachment 306944 Pumper

With a pumper carb this engine reliably made 28hp at 12,250 rpm, with EFI, 24hp at 11,500rpm is the best so far and the EFI is short about 1,000 rpm.

Attachment 306943 EFI

I think that its becoming obvious that with transfer port injection, matching the timing of the injection cycle to the transfer port open period is vital.

I am finding transfer port injection above 9,000rpm is very difficult and need to find another way to get to 12,500+rpm.

Below is an example of 15,000 rpm Inlet Port Injection.

Husa put me onto this post in PitLane http://translate.google.co.nz/transl...on&prev=search

It talks about split injection where a injector fires every second revolution, it may be the way forward. Husa reminded me that he had suggested it to me before ...

Gentlemen,

2 years ago I did an Indirect EFI project on a 125cc Disk Valve Kart Racing Engine. I used a Vortex FC engine which produced 49HP carbureted. With our EFI, it made 55HP!!! The engine was very easy to start and the tuning was very simple. Here is how I did it:

Rather than attach sensors to figure out the everything for me, I went with information that was known to me. I have been tuning Del'Lorto carbs for years and have used their needle charts along with various softwares that calculate Comparative MainJet Sizes at 10% throttle increments. I used this information to calculate an initial map for the injectors. I did a test on the carbureted version at each throttle position to note the EGT that was giving the correct performance. Once running with the EFI i tried to tune it to achieve the same EGT numbers as the carbureted version.

In total I ran for 3 hours on the dyno and ended up with 10% more power everywhere!

The only sensors I used were Throttle Position, Engine RPM, Crank Angle, and Water Temp for initial start up enrichment.

How did I get an injector to fire every cycle at 15000 rpm?????? I didnt! What I did is used a Janvey 41mm butterfly throttle body with 2 injectors on the engine side of the butterfly. That way when the throttle is closed, fuel still feeds the engine to lubricate it like a Pilot Jet would do. To get 15000 RPM, I had each injector firing at alternating engine revolutions. Thereby the injectors were seeing 7500 pulse at 15000rpm of engine speed. I tricked them into thinking this was a 2 cylinder 4 cycle engine firing in Tandem.

In total I spent $1600.00 in componentry to validate my "Simple EFI" idea! I will be doing more tests this winter and will be track testing in the spring. We are workind on the miimum battery requirements and packaging.

I used 2.5 Bar of pressure and will be testing more. I chose a disk valve engine for the symmetrical inlet timing. I used a valve the opened at 137 degrees BTDC and closed at 87 degrees ATDC. I started firing the injector 10 degrees earlier on the opening and stopped the injector 10 degrees after the valve closed.

Upon engine disassembly it was noted that the lubrication seemed to be better dispersed thru-out the engine (only an observation). The engine would start at less than 800 rpm of crank speed and would instantly accept full throttle load from 1200 rpm and up!

The only hurdle I see to over come is the packaging.

I am confident that my way of giving the ECU the MAP rather than having the ECU calculate the map is why I was successful. We have tuned by EGT for years and continue to see the relevance when using EFI in correlation to EGT. The increase power came by better fuel atomization. It stands to reason due to the limited time "Tuning" the system that even more power gains are to be realized with more work and data collection/analysis.

I am posting this information so more people will try this simple method and post their results here. I hope you all find the success that I did.

Larrys post has a few pictures of the BRC fuel injected BRC throttle bodies. More of BRC can be seen here:- http://brceng.com/brc-motorsports/

Video clip of a Inlet Port injected 15,000rpm 2T in action on the dyno.

Here are BRC EFI 125 engine videos




And photos of power curve and inlet

Attachment 306947Attachment 306948

[TZ350]

Ok, rearranged the injectors, injector one is still in the rear of the cylinder and injector two is firing down the carb. With the injection cycle timed to end at inlet closing.



Red line is both injectors in the rear of the cylinder. Blue line is with the second injector in the inlet tract. The lines diverge at the point the inlet injector takes over.

Pretty crap, but par for the course. Been here before so I expect we will sort it out in time.

Followed a link Husa sent me:- https://www.facebook.com/brcracingcanada to where BRC Racing talks about its EFI system.

""Our EFI project has been successful. In 2015 we will be track testing. At the moment we have achieved Dyno tests that match our very best using the Del'Lorto 42mm carbs.""

Its impressive and pretty interesting that they talk about the EFI matching their Carb setups, its interesting because I was expecting there may have been some improvements with EFI,

Its interesting because it goes to show that carbs can be pretty good.

[TZ350]

.
Money Shot



I had the injection cycle timed to end at inlet port closing but looking at the picture all that does is bounce fuel of the rotary valve. I will experiment with ending the injection cycle earlier.

[Martin1981]

Merry Christmas to all Kiwibikers and of course to all others poking around in this Thread!

[Frits Overmars]

Followed a link Husa sent me:- https://www.facebook.com/brcracingcanada to where BRC Racing talks about its EFI system. "Our EFI project has been successful. In 2015 we will be track testing. At the moment we have achieved Dyno tests that match our very best using the Del'Lorto 42mm carbs."
Its impressive and pretty interesting that they talk about the EFI matching their Carb setups, its interesting because I was expecting there may have been some improvements with EFI, Its interesting because it goes to show that carbs can be pretty good.

The main advantage of EFI on a kart is that the motorcycle carbs everyone is using were never designed to handle acceleration in four directions. It's the one factor that gives more trouble on kart engines than all other factors put together.
Riley Will of BRC is already achieving good results with EFI and so is Roland Holzner of Modena engines in Italy. But injection has yet to be homologated on 125 cc karts, which could be a special problem for Modena. Their heat-insulating inlet insert was already more advanced than the ultraconservative FIA-CIK officials would have liked to see and you can imagine how they feel about Modena's experimental 24/7 engine which does not seem to care about their obligatory 30 mm inlet restriction.

[Haufen]

.
Money Shot



I had the injection cycle timed to end at inlet port closing but looking at the picture all that does is bounce fuel of the rotary valve. I will experiment with ending the injection cycle earlier.

Maybe I missed something, but why don't you inject directly into the crankcase, between the crank webs?

[Peter1962]

The main advantage of EFI on a kart is that the motorcycle carbs everyone is using were never designed to handle acceleration in four directions. It's the one factor that gives more trouble on kart engines than all other factors put together.
Riley Will of BRC is already achieving good results with EFI and so is Roland Holzner of Modena engines in Italy. But injection has yet to be homologated on 125 cc karts, which could be a special problem for Modena. Their heat-insulating inlet insert was already more advanced than the ultraconservative FIA-CIK officials would have liked to see and you can imagine how they feel about Modena's experimental 24/7 engine which does not seem to care about their obligatory 30 mm inlet restriction.

Frits, is het gelukt met de 24/7 ? Did it work out with the 24/7 timing ? Congratulations ! I hope we will soon see more details on this.

[TZ350]

Maybe I missed something, but why don't you inject directly into the crankcase, between the crank webs?

I had thought about that and it would lubricate the bigend nicely but its was mechanically easier to start with transfer injection, also I wanted to squirt the fuel directly onto the underside of the piston crown for cooling.

When I started this EFI project I knew nothing about EFI, probably not much has changed, but I have developed a bit of a feel for how many ms it takes for a crank to move so many degrees at 12,000 rpm.

Looks like I have spent a lot of time going down a blind ally but you get a bit of that on projects ....

[TZ350]

.

Husa put me onto this post in PitLane http://translate.google.co.nz/transl...on&prev=search

It talks about split injection where a injector fires every second revolution, it may be the way forward. Husa reminded me that he had suggested it to me before ...

Gentlemen,

2 years ago I did an Indirect EFI project on a 125cc Disk Valve Kart Racing Engine. I used a Vortex FC engine which produced 49HP carbureted. With our EFI, it made 55HP!!! The engine was very easy to start and the tuning was very simple. Here is how I did it:

Rather than attach sensors to figure out the everything for me, I went with information that was known to me. I have been tuning Del'Lorto carbs for years and have used their needle charts along with various softwares that calculate Comparative MainJet Sizes at 10% throttle increments. I used this information to calculate an initial map for the injectors. I did a test on the carbureted version at each throttle position to note the EGT that was giving the correct performance. Once running with the EFI i tried to tune it to achieve the same EGT numbers as the carbureted version.

In total I ran for 3 hours on the dyno and ended up with 10% more power everywhere!

The only sensors I used were Throttle Position, Engine RPM, Crank Angle, and Water Temp for initial start up enrichment.

How did I get an injector to fire every cycle at 15000 rpm?????? I didnt! What I did is used a Janvey 41mm butterfly throttle body with 2 injectors on the engine side of the butterfly. That way when the throttle is closed, fuel still feeds the engine to lubricate it like a Pilot Jet would do. To get 15000 RPM, I had each injector firing at alternating engine revolutions. Thereby the injectors were seeing 7500 pulse at 15000rpm of engine speed. I tricked them into thinking this was a 2 cylinder 4 cycle engine firing in Tandem.

In total I spent $1600.00 in componentry to validate my "Simple EFI" idea! I will be doing more tests this winter and will be track testing in the spring. We are workind on the miimum battery requirements and packaging.

I used 2.5 Bar of pressure and will be testing more. I chose a disk valve engine for the symetrical inlet timing. I used a valve the opened at 137 degrees BTDC and closed at 87 degrees ATDC. I started firing the injector 10 degrees earlier on the opening and stopped the injector 10 degrees after the valve closed.

Upon engine disassembly it was noted that the lubraction seemed to be better dispersed thru-out the engine (only an observation). The engine would start at less than 800 rpm of crank speed and would instantly accept full throttle load from 1200 rpm and up!

The only hurdle I see to over come is the packaging.

I am confident that my way of giving the ECU the MAP rather than having the ECU calculate the map is why I was successful. We have tuned by EGT for years and continue to see the relevance when using EFI in correlation to EGT. The increase power came by better fuel atomization. It stands to reason due to the limited time "Tuning" the system that even more power gains are to be realized with more work and data collection/analysis.

I am posting this information so more people will try this simple method and post their results here. I hope you all find the success that I did.

http://translate.google.co.nz/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.pit-lane.biz/t839p15-technique-2-tempset-l-injection&prev=search

[husaberg]

.

Husa put me onto this post in PitLane http://translate.google.co.nz/transl...on&prev=search

It talks about split injection where a injector fires every second revolution, it may be the way forward. Husa reminded me that he had suggested it to me before ...

I stole it from Cagiva though.

Anything well just about anything can be made to work given enough time, money and more importantly determination.

I remember the Cagiva system involved huge pressures.
The biggest potential advantages i see with fuel injection are economy and emissions drive-ability but maybe, i am short sighted about this.

The one thing i did pick up from a few pages back was the split system with each set of injectors handling half the revolutions. So two injectors on each cylinder running each fueling alternate revolutions. Which should solve a few of the problems with doing it in the past.

You could also maybe alter the characteristics under overrun even possibly dial in some engine braking.
Maybe include a four stroke switch for slippery conditions and learner racers.

2011 Return of the two stroke. Possibly premature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goNP9...ia1uTNqMht_TCF

You knew it to Rob ya just didn't remember.........

Sensible, and works for a 4T but the problem I face with my 2T is that an injector small enough for starting and clean running at low rpm is to small when the engine gets on the pipe so you have to have two different sized injectors and swap between them for high and low speed running.

I think my real problem is in finding injectors dynamic enough to handle what would be 28,000 rpm in 4T terms.

It might be that I will have to run two injectors in parallel firing on alternate cycles.

I might have to patent the foul stroke switch idea though, might even make a crap noise function app

This is what I believe Frits was referring to, a couple of pages back with the Honda and making effort to make it un-twitchy

BRC (make Rotax 256 copy kart engines) Riley Will (who contributed to the pitlane.biz RSA thread) spoke the most sense there
The 2002 500cc bikes used 35-36mm carbs with electronic solenoid type power jets.

KTM used a hybrid system where they used an injector to augment the fueling requirements. It was used in their 250cc program, but I'm not 100% sure if they used it in the 125cc bike as well. Probably, but I cannot be certain.

Aprilia was guilty of throwing out what they perfected (carburation)and introducing a totally new concept loaded with technology EFI system. It was an intelligent system that made all the theoretical calculations at light speed..... It was a perfect system....... Too perfect! For years 2 stroke engine development was being done using less than perfect carburetor. This includes rider knowledge, tire construction, and suspension..... The end result was that the riders and machinery (tires) couldn't cope with the instantaneous increase in torque when the throttle was opened while at maximum lean angles.

When I discussed how I was going to do my EFI, their main electronics engineer started clapping..... What I wanted to do (and later did) was to upload a fuel distribution curve similar to a Del'Lorto needle/tube (needle jet) combination and did not let the computer adjust it. I used a TPS, H2O sensor, Air temp sensor, and Hall Sensor for crank angle/rpm. This way I was using what I knew, but getting the benefit of 3 bar of fuel pressure and injector atomization. I had total control and could add fuel to make the fuel curve "imperfect" if need be. I used 2 injectors mounted on the engine side of the throttle valve and I alternated their firing so that I could rev upto 15000 rpm. That way each injector was mislead into thinking it was feeding a 7500 rpm max 4 stroke cylinder. In total I invested $1600 into the total system and had it running pulling load on the dyno in 3 hours
Riley later says he timed the injector to squirt 10deg before inlet open and finish 10deg after inlet close

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, is het gelukt met de 24/7 ? Did it work out with the 24/7 timing ? Congratulations ! I hope we will soon see more details on this.

It works. It works to such an extent that I am not at liberty to divulge anything about the power curve (for fear that the FIA-CIK tech people might outlaw it even before it hits the track).

[teriks]

It works. It works to such an extent that I am not at liberty to divulge anything about the power curve (for fear that the FIA-CIK tech people might outlaw it even before it hits the track).

Now that is some really fun reading, congratulations Frits!

[wobbly]

Yam 1 is OK if you keep the old fashioned and inefficient axial angles on the transfers.
Way better to do some welding on the B ports and flatten them to around 10*.
And epoxy the A port roof to get 25 - 28*.
Then Yam 12 is the correct scavenging model - also hugely more efficient scavenging pattern, especially if the B port rear wall is progressively
ground back and a proper radiused hook put on the duct exit.

Having the transfers up at 130 is as wild as any RZ Banshee motor should go,having these with a 190 Ex is just not remotely right at all, no matter what
the end use is of a 5 port reasonably modern layout ( RZ perfect example ) so yes something is not right.

A 950 pipe will go out to near 12,000 if every other component is set up to be doing this, including Ex timing up at 196 - 200.
Most important of course is the ignition curve,a stock Banshee or RZ ignition is useless for this, as is the PV curve.
And getting the Ex duct nozzle dimensions correct gives a huge boost in power with the 3 port, as well as allowing a much better pipe design to be used.

Off to open pressys and drink far too much and become obnoxious - cant wait.