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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #7486
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Interested as to why these guys even think that getting an EXTREME 36 Hp from a 150cc special cylinder with a 38mm carb
    is worthy of raving about and videoing on U tube.
    Take a MX based TM125 cylinder that makes more than that as a 125 and drop in a 60mm piston,port and pipe it with good attention to detail
    and it makes over 50 RWHp on a Dynojet twin roller with load control, on UNLEADED pump gas.
    Now get excited, but no im not putting it on here nor U Tube.
    I heard somewhere you have worked with Jim Lomis there Wobbly.... He does quite a bit of work with Tuned Vespas (although he is not, nor does he claim to be, at the forefront of technology)

    But that aside, have you ever tried to implement many of the things you have talked about on here through a 4 speed box before? (this is just a question, nothing inflammatory intended)

    The GP 125 current woes seem to me to be exasperated by this drive for high RPM (with pipe designs all aiming for 14,000 plus rpm)

    I have shown several dyno runs with similar peak power, just thousands of rpm less, and over a far wider "band"

    This is neither difficult, nor costly to achieve.

    I see that Speedpro's engine is "the business" as far as power goes, but, from what I understand, not doing much winning, even with it's advantage (over Teezee's) of a 6 ratio box.

    I would again put forward the idea of reducing certain aspects of the engine(s), particularly the blowdown time (therefore Peak power rpm range) and building a pipe to suit.

    Like I say, less is more. Particularly when you have shitty gear ratios to play with.

    Speedpro has mentioned recently that he plans to run something like 192 degrees, with his single exhaust port, being limited in his width and therefore blowdown T/A, if he manages to develop a pipe to suit, going through a 6 speed box, this, in my experience should be a real weapon, all happening below 10,500 RPM

    Should be worth watching.

  2. #7487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haufen View Post
    . Can you pick any cylinder you want as long as you stay within the 100/125 cc displacement limit?
    Yes
    100cc any cylinder any carb, 125 aircooled only plus carb restriction
    My neighbours diary says I have boundary issues

  3. #7488
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    Ohh look page 500. 3rd bump then I give up


    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    2nd bump. I don't want to run thrust washers if I can avoid it.
    Originally Posted by F5 Dave ok, a question for the panel;
    . . .
    So I'm left with the suitability question over 17mm wide MB SE bearing in a Yam piston with 19.2mm between the bosses, so 2.2mm clearance. With a wider rod it should not make it out of the small end.

    I'm not overly happy with the 2.5mm rollers (making for a 14x19 bearing) that only has 11 rollers, but they seem to go ok in std bikes. Most of the 18x14 brgs seem to run 12 rollers.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
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  4. #7489
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    I just missed one bit, was that 500 degrees or 550 degrees?
    Heres a colour chart to help you , looks around 800°C

    Click image for larger version. 

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    My neighbours diary says I have boundary issues

  5. #7490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haufen View Post
    That's true of course. But as these cylinders are limited by the standard stud pattern and air cooling those results (RWHp+unleaded pump gas) are not that bad.

    I am not familiar with the bucket regulations. Can you pick any cylinder you want as long as you stay within the 100/125 cc displacement limit?
    Limted by the stud pattern? Not so, there are plenty of conversions getting around using adapter plates, most of which are water cooled.

    The "plug and play" concept limits the stud patterns of course, but that's easily overcome (like Lauros solution for boysen ports)

    The big limitation for race engine power is available gear ratios, and, in the event that this cannot be altered (zirri short fourths only have certain advantages) you have to make sacrifices in regards to peak power in return for a wider spread at a lower RPM.

    This is one reason why Lambretta tuners can make bigger numbers than Vespa tuners... lambretta models have many different gear ratios, most all of which are interchangeable between
    Engines, meaning even though they only have 4 ratios, there exists a possibility to build a gearbox with suitable gear ratios for a peakier engine.

  6. #7491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haufen View Post
    That's true of course. But as these cylinders are limited by the standard stud pattern and air cooling those results (RWHp+unleaded pump gas) are not that bad.

    I am not familiar with the bucket regulations. Can you pick any cylinder you want as long as you stay within the 100/125 cc displacement limit?
    Bucket rules here http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/...C2050528%22%7D

    It can't be a competiton/race cylinder
    "If you can make black marks on a straight from the time you turn out of a corner until the braking point of the next turn, then you have enough power."


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  7. #7492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yow Ling View Post
    Heres a colour chart to help you , looks around 800°C

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I might have misheard, but he didn't mention 800 degrees, I am sure he said 550 degrees, but I didn't watch all the way through.

  8. #7493
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    Page 500 .....

    No need to have a peaky engine. Here are Two Very useful Tools. EngMod2T a 2-Stroke simulation package and a handy (and cheep) Porting Calculator from:- http://www.porting-programs.com/ which is based on Blairs work.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Because a few people have asked about the GP engine, to save wading through 500 pages, these links go to the more relevant posts about building a reliable high 20's hp engine.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	263593 27hp 1978 Suzuki GP125
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    And for something a little more radical for the adventurous ..... The basic info for building a 30+hp Suzuki GP125

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	263587 30hp 1978 Suzuki GP125
    There are over 3,500 images on this thread. To find the interesting ones use Thread Tools near the top of this page and View Images, then sort them from the Beginning and 70 to a page. Click on the Image to view it and the little N/A sign to go to the Post about it.

    On each decade page, 490, 480, 470, 460 etc there is a collection of links or a collection of the more interesting technical posts from the last ten pages.

    A bit of an index .....

    Page 490 The Trombone, Ex port resonance and Transfer port stagger.
    Page 480 A vid of the Trombone, transfer timing and hot gases entering the transfers because of insufficient blow-down for the rpm.
    Page 470 Blow-down STA ... Specific Time Area.
    Page 460 No list but the page talks about Boost Bottles.
    Page 450 Links to the basic info for building a 30+ hp Bucket.
    Page 440 No list, page talks about power and air correction jets.
    Page 430 Carb inlet lengths and crankcase volumes.
    Page 420 Transfer ports and the importance of the up swept angles, the Leaning Tower of Pisa principle explained.
    Page 410 Rolling road dynos, main and power jet ratio.
    Page 400 Links to the basic info for building a 30hp Suzuki GP125 Bucket engine.
    Page 390 Links to Frits collection of Aprilia stuff.
    Page 380 Transfer duct shape and STA's.
    Page 370 No list but the page talks about Jan Thiel and racing 50's.
    Page 360 Frits chamber calculations formula.
    Page 350 PJ switching, Wob and crank shaft balance.
    Page 340 Muriatic Acid, main brg float, Husburgs con rod dimensions.
    Page 330 No list, page talks about expansion chambers, race gas.
    Page 320 High temp silicon, Yama Bond, crankcase sealing, air solenoids Vid clips of Mamola.
    Page 310 Copper for cooling, sprockets for cooling, steering head brgs.
    Page 300 How to determine STA numbers.
    Page 290 B/E dimensions, delivery ratio, Honda Ex Step, stinger nozzel
    Page 280 Aprilia RSA port layout explained, pumper carb, links to gluing up the GP cases.
    Page 270 Link list on how to make a decent high 20's hp Suzuki GP125 Bucket engine.
    Page 260 Over rev cough and what it means, Mallory metal for crank balancing.
    Page 250 27hp from a 1978 Suzuki GP125
    Page 240 Aprilia RSA cylinder stuff.
    Page 230 Porting Calculator and a lot of other useful tech links.
    Page 220 RG50 part numbers, 2-stroke carb atomisers explained
    Page 210 Page is mostly about the results from the TRRS
    Page 200 Simple 18 hp Suzuki GP Bucket engine using a RG250 pipe.

    Etc ...

  9. #7494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yow Ling View Post
    Yes
    100cc any cylinder any carb, 125 aircooled only plus carb restriction
    I am wondering, how comes nobody has yet started to do "the ugly things", like welding cooling fins to a 125 gp barrel, or taken a powerful 125cc barrel, sleeving and destroking it to get below 100cc, or cast one's own cylinders (would that be allowed)?

    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    Limted by the stud pattern? Not so, there are plenty of conversions getting around using adapter plates, most of which are water cooled.

    The "plug and play" concept limits the stud patterns of course, but that's easily overcome (like Lauros solution for boysen ports)

    The big limitation for race engine power is available gear ratios, and, in the event that this cannot be altered (zirri short fourths only have certain advantages) you have to make sacrifices in regards to peak power in return for a wider spread at a lower RPM.
    Well, I was talking about the engines in the videos, which are aftermarket Falc cylinders that bolt onto the standard stud pattern.

    I think you are not quite up to date concerning the available gear ratios, smallframe gearing has become heaven on earth during the last few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
    Bucket rules here http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/...C2050528%22%7D

    It can't be a competiton/race cylinder

    thanks, now I got it.

  10. #7495
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    Yes I worked with Jim at JL for a couple of years before I went to work with Hines at Zipkart as factory manager.
    Even now Jim has his minions cut patterns by hand as his labour is cheap, lasers cost a fortune, plus the needed CAD packages/operators to suit.

    One thing I have mentioned several times here is that the reliability ( or lack of it ) of the recently powerful buckets has nothing to do with the design philosophy
    or even an inherent 2T issue.
    Its all to do with knowledge base and implementation.
    TeeZees thing would never have died , if I had seen the ignition curve before the problem became very publicly obvious ( and you have to admire him and his team showing the world what not to do for free, even
    though it costs those guys plenty in time and parts ).

    Building a 4 speed is just as easy as building for a 6 speed.
    You just plug in the bmep numbers and by default the lower requirements will produce a wider powerband.
    Same with the pipe design ,the angles and relative % lengths needed to give as wide a band as is required to stay in the power , its simply a different approach to tuning for high bmep and thus power peaks, at
    the expense of width.

    Depends at the end of the day on the funds available.
    With plenty of cash I would always go for the fattest torque curve with the rpm up near the cranks mechanical limit of say 14000.
    This approach with a ton of rpm and a wide powerband will always be faster than the same engine developing its power down at 10500,with the huge advantage of adding several teeth on the
    rear sprocket and the physics of torque multiplication, plus the vastly superior sonic tuning available with that higher rpm.
    But to use that approach requires a heap of detailed knowledge,and of course that costs money, as anyone can read Bell and Jennings, then build a bucket with good power at 10500, but that
    is no longer an option with 30 Hp easily doable - just the finer points need to be addressed and those guys will be GONE, 20M ahead at the first corner.

    PS - if ANYONE can do a 125 Aircooled with 24mm carb and make anything like 30 Hp at 10500, then its here in writing - free blowys for life.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  11. #7496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haufen View Post

    I think you are not quite up to date concerning the available gear ratios, smallframe gearing has become heaven on earth during the last few years.
    "heaven on earth" how so?

    Last time I checked (this afternoon) small frames are all 4 speed, and other than some short fourth manufacturers, you are limited to either an ET3, PK80 SS50 or Primavera übersetzung... Although the 50s had a "long fourth", and works well with certain set ups.

  12. #7497
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post



    Building a 4 speed is just as easy as building for a 6 speed.
    You just plug in the bmep numbers and by default the lower requirements will produce a wider powerband.
    Same with the pipe design ,the angles and relative % lengths needed to give as wide a band as is required to stay in the power , its simply a different approach to tuning for high bmep and thus power peaks, at
    the expense of width.

    Depends at the end of the day on the funds available.
    With plenty of cash I would always go for the fattest torque curve with the rpm up near the cranks mechanical limit of say 14000.
    This approach with a ton of rpm and a wide powerband will always be faster than the same engine developing its power down at 10500,with the huge advantage of adding several teeth on the
    rear sprocket and the physics of torque multiplication, plus the vastly superior sonic tuning available with that higher rpm.
    But to use that approach requires a heap of detailed knowledge,and of course that costs money, as anyone can read Bell and Jennings, then build a bucket with good power at 10500, but that
    is no longer an option with 30 Hp easily doable - just the finer points need to be addressed and those guys will be GONE, 20M ahead at the first corner.
    At this stage, it remains to be seen, as even when Teezees bike was peddled by a featherweight rider, it wasn't winning anything before expiring. Although, when the same rider was riding a bike with substantially less power it by all accounts it cleaned up.

    To me there is a clear case for building a bike that is easier to ride, and handles better (like stick a tamer engine in an RS chassis)

    Im still quite dismayed that after all this, FXR 1fucking50s are still the standard.

  13. #7498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haufen View Post
    I am wondering, how comes nobody has yet started to do "the ugly things", like welding cooling fins to a 125 gp barrel, or taken a powerful 125cc barrel, sleeving and destroking it to get below 100cc, or cast one's own cylinders (would that be allowed)?
    In F4 a 100cc 2-Stroke can be water cooled and have any size carb, a 125 must be air cooled and is restricted to a 24mm carb.

    TeeZee has managed to make 31 hp with his old 125cc air cooled engine from the 70's and with some development I expect he will get it reliable too.

    Casting your own cylinder is allowed and a pretty impressive thing to do. RGV250 cylinders have been sleeved down to 100. And TeeZee has looked at air cooling one too. RG400 cylinders are/were also popular.

    Basically anything you make or can modify from a non-compitition engine is allowed.

  14. #7499
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    Im still quite dismayed that after all this, FXR 1fucking50s are still the standard.
    WE feel your pain ...

    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    At this stage, it remains to be seen, as even when Teezees bike was peddled by a featherweight rider, it wasn't winning anything before expiring. Although, when the same rider was riding a bike with substantially less power it by all accounts it cleaned up.
    Not sure where you got that from, maybe a quote or two would be handy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    To me there is a clear case for building a bike that is easier to ride, and handles better (like stick a tamer engine in an RS chassis)
    There is no doubt about how impressivly Av cleaned up at Tokoroa and then again at Te Puke on her RS/GP125. The bike was prepaired by Chambers and based on TeeZee's work, the engine layout followed TeeZee's ideas posted earler.

    I don't think anyone doubts that more hp in her hands will be devistating.

  15. #7500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haufen View Post
    I am wondering, how comes nobody has yet started to do "the ugly things", like welding cooling fins to a 125 gp barrel, or taken a powerful 125cc barrel, sleeving and destroking it to get below 100cc, or cast one's own cylinders (would that be allowed)?
    . .
    They are all supposed to be non competition parts, so not any 100cc, he meant 100cc could be water cooled. To that end we do weld water jackets to air cooled 100s if keen.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
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