ESE's works engine tuner

[dutchpower]

Did you not test it on the same day Wobble

[TZ350]

Well finally boys and girls here is the evidence of what happens when you ceramic coat an Exhaust duct.
The duct was coated with TBC ( Thermal Barrier Coating ) by HPC as is used to coat 4T piston crowns and exhaust pipes.
It was masked off about 10mm into the duct such that the surrounding metal of the port itself would not overheat and create bore distortion.

The result is a drop of about 1Hp all the way up the front side, but more importantly the egt at lower rpm is about 50*C hotter.

From this area upward the deto level was over double that of the stock uncoated cylinder, and under normal test conditions I would have richened the jetting to try to get back to the same deto level - obviously to the detriment of an extra power loss.
But this test shows that the actual top end jetting was all but identical.

Based on this I now firmly believe in changing the cylinder cooling regime ( TM KZ10C ) to increase the water flow under the duct, and to extend that cooling right out to the back of the pipe spigot flange face.

Did you not test it on the same day Wobbly

After all the work involved, ""test same day"", said tongue in cheek no doubt ... ..... thank you for doing the work and letting us know Wob.

[jamathi]

Well finally boys and girls here is the evidence of what happens when you ceramic coat an Exhaust duct.
The duct was coated with TBC ( Thermal Barrier Coating ) by HPC as is used to coat 4T piston crowns and exhaust pipes.
It was masked off about 10mm into the duct such that the surrounding metal of the port itself would not overheat and create bore distortion.
The result is a drop of about 1Hp all the way up the front side, but more importantly the egt at lower rpm is about 50*C hotter.
From this area upward the deto level was over double that of the stock uncoated cylinder, and under normal test conditions I would have richened the jetting
to try to get back to the same deto level - obviously to the detriment of an extra power loss.
But this test shows that the actual top end jetting was all but identical.

Based on this I now firmly believe in changing the cylinder cooling regime ( TM KZ10C ) to increase the water flow under the duct, and to extend that cooling right out
to the back of the pipe spigot flange face.
I am permitted to machine say 5mm off the cylinder duct exit - and increase the flange thickness by the same amount, allowing a water passage within the fixing flange
to lengthen the cooled length of the exit flow.

Just as I hoped for, and secretly was convinced of, thank you SO much for publishing this!!
How about now coating the outside of the pipe?
Or even better the inside.....
That might be what Franco and other karting people are looking for:
A quicker responding pipe.....
It might also permit bigger belly diameters!

[Muhr]

Soon I hope all simulation work will be done! Waiting for cylinder deformation on heating and tightened cylinder head.

Not the best look, but hope it works

[wobbly]

In answer to the "same day " question the answer is no,
BUT, look at the weather correction difference, its tiny as the important factors ( ambient temp and baro pressure ) are very similar.
Usually I would do a back to back, but as the coated cylinder detoed so badly and the egt ended at almost exactly the same level ( 620*C ) i was
more than convinced that the answer wasnt misleading.
The stock cylinder had a deto level of around 1.6V @ torque peak - that same cylinder with the coated port was 3.5V ( on a 0-5V scale ).
That is a level that would eat the piston in a very short time.
The SportsDevices correction makes these dyno runs repeatable on different days within a 1/10 or two of a Hp.
Now I have to find a way to remove the baked on ceramic coating - bugger.

I have ceramic coated the inside of a " homologated " pipe ( ie one that is not allowed to be modified ) and it retained so much surface internal temp that
it lost ALL the bottom end power and then overheated the piston face so much it seized.
The best way to cheat in this department is to acid dip the pipe to reduce the thermal mass, it its been done before in KZ2 where someone at the factory ordered
a small batch of thin wall items from Elto the pipe makers.
So now the tech checkers use a sonic thickness gauge to check this very issue.
If I was allowed to I would make the header and the rear cone in 0.6mm and the rest in 0.8 - that works really well.

[Muhr]

In answer to the "same day " question the answer is no,
BUT, look at the weather correction difference, its tiny as the important factors ( ambient temp and baro pressure ) are very similar.
Usually I would do a back to back, but as the coated cylinder detoed so badly and the egt ended at almost exactly the same level ( 620*C ) i was
more than convinced that the answer wasnt misleading.
The stock cylinder had a deto level of around 1.6V @ torque peak - that same cylinder with the coated port was 3.5V ( on a 0-5V scale ).
That is a level that would eat the piston in a very short time.
The SportsDevices correction makes these dyno runs repeatable on different days within a 1/10 or two of a Hp.
Now I have to find a way to remove the baked on ceramic coating - bugger.

I have ceramic coated the inside of a " homologated " pipe ( ie one that is not allowed to be modified ) and it retained so much surface internal temp that
it lost ALL the bottom end power and then overheated the piston face so much it seized.
The best way to cheat in this department is to acid dip the pipe to reduce the thermal mass, it its been done before in KZ2 where someone at the factory ordered
a small batch of thin wall items from Elto the pipe makers.
So now the tech checkers use a sonic thickness gauge to check this very issue.
If I was allowed to I would make the header and the rear cone in 0.6mm and the rest in 0.8 - that works really well.

Thanks for sharing. great job!
how was the spread of deto around the piston?

[Nath88]

Thanks for the suggestions, the ideas will come in handy.

I have had a bit of success tonight. Used a $12.90 kitset amp from Jaycar as a front end before the bridge rectifier. It worked a treat and gave a very consistent signal.

Attachment 334893

I used the 0.5W champ amp to amplify the signal from the Piezo disk then passed the output through the bridge rectifier. Very crisp, sharp and consistent signal up to 12,000 rpm.

The Champ amp is based on the LM386 Op amp. With no real load on the output, the output signal was quite high. I need a 5 Volt digital signal for the Arduino input so over the next few nights I will see if I can trade some height for signal width that the Arduino can easily see.

Anyway, very pleased, it feels like progress......

This is great stuff TZ.
Capture and compare those two peaks and I think you're in business.
A low pass filter will trade height for width, but there will be a phase shift/delay which is probably not what you want. If you can sample fast enough to capture the raw signal that would be best.
Consider using the Teensy microprocessor, arduino compatible programming wise but faster processing, also much faster analog input reads. There's also a few extra functions around timing/scheduling that can simplify your programming when you're timing from a crank trigger.

I'm still going down the crankcase pressure route, I've started writing some pseudo-code for measurement vs. crank angle.
I think your system is better since you can have your injection starting very early. You may be able to get accurate fuelling even injecting at the inlet port. I doubt that's possible with crankcase pressure measurement, transfer port injection would be required.

[wobbly]

The dyno curves shown are three pulls averaged, so the run time isn't sufficient to actually eat a piston with that level of deto.

[peewee]

and to extend that cooling right out
to the back of the pipe spigot flange face.
I am permitted to machine say 5mm off the cylinder duct exit - and increase the flange thickness by the same amount, allowing a water passage within the fixing flange
to lengthen the cooled length of the exit flow.

I was thinking about it the other day and why not have the water go down the exh spigot as well. would be easy enough to do. basically all you need is a chunk of what ever material you want to use for the exh spigot, mill, lathe, then youll need to weld on a new steel spigot to the pipe because the exh spigot will have a bit larger OD to allow for the water passage

[diesel62]

I was thinking about it the other day and why not have the water go down the exh spigot as well. would be easy enough to do. basically all you need is a chunk of what ever material you want to use for the exh spigot, mill, lathe, then youll need to weld on a new steel spigot to the pipe because the exh spigot will have a bit larger OD to allow for the water passage

If a ceramic coating makes it worse what about a copper insert that will transfer heat faster?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[wobbly]

Ha ha Jan, now we can contact " The Great Leader " and tell him straight out he was a wanker all those years ago when he told me
at Philip Island in 2000 that I ( and you ) were completely wrong about duct cooling, because "it took energy away from the pipe ".
Bullshit.
All the KZ10 engines have a tapered spigot OD that fits the pipe ( and you cant change the pipe at all ),I also taper the spigot ID from
the oval shape at the flange face to the round header ID.
This leaves the spigot end as a sharp edge, so I can only CNC plunge cut a water passage a short distance in from the flange face.
I am going to now modify a new cylinder to have the water passages out to the flange face as I have shown before.
Then test using stainless for the spigot, as it conducts heat way less than mild steel, then try a copper one.
But I worry about the strength of a copper spigot,having to hold up the pipe on a kart.

[husaberg]

But I worry about the strength of a copper spigot,having to hold up the pipe on a kart.

Try an Cu alloy with a tiny amount of tin in it.

[jamathi]

In answer to the "same day " question the answer is no,
BUT, look at the weather correction difference, its tiny as the important factors ( ambient temp and baro pressure ) are very similar.
Usually I would do a back to back, but as the coated cylinder detoed so badly and the egt ended at almost exactly the same level ( 620*C ) i was
more than convinced that the answer wasnt misleading.
The stock cylinder had a deto level of around 1.6V @ torque peak - that same cylinder with the coated port was 3.5V ( on a 0-5V scale ).
That is a level that would eat the piston in a very short time.
The SportsDevices correction makes these dyno runs repeatable on different days within a 1/10 or two of a Hp.
Now I have to find a way to remove the baked on ceramic coating - bugger.

I have ceramic coated the inside of a " homologated " pipe ( ie one that is not allowed to be modified ) and it retained so much surface internal temp that
it lost ALL the bottom end power and then overheated the piston face so much it seized.
The best way to cheat in this department is to acid dip the pipe to reduce the thermal mass, it its been done before in KZ2 where someone at the factory ordered
a small batch of thin wall items from Elto the pipe makers.
So now the tech checkers use a sonic thickness gauge to check this very issue.
If I was allowed to I would make the header and the rear cone in 0.6mm and the rest in 0.8 - that works really well.

Retaining all the internal heat would make totally different pipe sizes unavoidable, as I expected.
Finding the right sizes would be difficult I think!
Starting almost from 0 again....
Would 'scaling' an existing pipe be possible?
It could be a starting point I suppose....
All sizes + 10%, up 20% etc.
Think of all the extra energy!

[Grumph]

Try an Cu alloy with a tiny amount of tin in it.

Admiralty bronze. Nearly the same conductivity as Cu but a lot stronger.

[dutchpower]

In answer to the "same day " question the answer is no,
BUT, look at the weather correction difference, its tiny as the important factors ( ambient temp and baro pressure ) are very similar.
Usually I would do a back to back, but as the coated cylinder detoed so badly and the egt ended at almost exactly the same level ( 620*C ) i was
more than convinced that the answer wasnt misleading.
The stock cylinder had a deto level of around 1.6V @ torque peak - that same cylinder with the coated port was 3.5V ( on a 0-5V scale ).
That is a level that would eat the piston in a very short time.
The SportsDevices correction makes these dyno runs repeatable on different days within a 1/10 or two of a Hp.
Now I have to find a way to remove the baked on ceramic coating - bugger.

I have ceramic coated the inside of a " homologated " pipe ( ie one that is not allowed to be modified ) and it retained so much surface internal temp that
it lost ALL the bottom end power and then overheated the piston face so much it seized.
The best way to cheat in this department is to acid dip the pipe to reduce the thermal mass, it its been done before in KZ2 where someone at the factory ordered
a small batch of thin wall items from Elto the pipe makers.
So now the tech checkers use a sonic thickness gauge to check this very issue.
If I was allowed to I would make the header and the rear cone in 0.6mm and the rest in 0.8 - that works really well.

Mayby try this Wobble

We make this for Team Lieqois ( Azuma ) gives more torque
And use sheetmetaal whit the most % of cu in it