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Thread: The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

  1. #751
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    Funny how this topic always goes full circle.

    -"what about air cooled (insert shitty outdated) engine xyz blah blah"

    -Economical performance engines "not in the spirit" yet purchasing many thousand dollar produced "custom" workaround parts somehow is an excellent option.

    -"that'll open a can of worms!" everyone will suddenly be producing 50hp huge overbored/stroked/magic/fxr killers.

    -But someone might buy a ktm and potentially match my power that I spent $6k+ getting! Peasants don't deserve such power!



    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

  2. #752
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    That TF has many hours and some carefully chosen parts with outsourcing crank machining. It was a friggin lemon as was and that had been reconditioned and someone play with it. Miles off a FXR.

    As I said there's an RM80 chassis being used with shortened suspension, rearsets, clipons and relaced rims that is ridden quite effectively. If he could get the (wait for it) TF engine up to speed and staying together it would be competitive.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
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  3. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by speights_bud View Post
    Funny how this topic always goes full circle.

    -"what about air cooled (insert shitty outdated) engine xyz blah blah"

    -Economical performance engines "not in the spirit" yet purchasing many thousand dollar produced "custom" workaround parts somehow is an excellent option.

    -"that'll open a can of worms!" everyone will suddenly be producing 50hp huge overbored/stroked/magic/fxr killers.

    -But someone might buy a ktm and potentially match my power that I spent $6k+ getting! Peasants don't deserve such power!



    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
    the work around parts people have spent money and time on are to stay within the rules.
    As i said Speedpro and Dave could easily have just put in a CR80 crank but they didnt because they wanted to stay with the rules.
    They can also have put in CR80 Gearboxs they fit too.
    Why should people who actually stumped up money and committed to the rules be penalized forever to save some money for some who aren't even racing in the on a bike thats not legal who want to change the rules, its ilogical.
    This isnt a dig at you BTW.
    If you want to let in MX engines open up the parts for the other currently legal classes to avoid the expensive work arround parts that the legal bikes are forced to use.
    THe only reason to use strike pistons is there is no other cheap option for the 100cc buckets.
    I not in the spirit of the rules stuff doesnt wash Excluding competition engines its then the actual reason the class was created and has always been a fundamental defining part of the rules. its not the spirit its always been written as clear as the MNZ appears to be able to write it. its a non competition engine class. its a fundelmetal defining rule of the class. spirit implies it was only what the rule means. Non competition engine is what the rules say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
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  4. #754
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    Im not a bucket racer - but I did look into it some time back, attracted to the ideology - build a 'racebike' that was a cheap peice of shit that everyone could get involved with without spending heaps of money.

    decided against it, as it was obviously taken quite seriously by many, and good odds Id spend so much on trying to be competitive as i would if I went racing in clubmans on something relatively modern.

    Has anyone considered the possibility of a Max HP rule, with a system that allows someone to 'claim' an engine swap with someone else?
    would that not automatically make it pointless and un-appealing to spend the fuckloads of money that ultimately makes bucket racing so serious, and force it back to the original mentality?

  5. #755
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    Can't max hp without on site dyno. Claiming rule would just end up with people refusing and leaving in a huff, never to return after they spent, I dunno, say, as many hours as I have trying to get an old TF to be competitive for a mate. Need a pipe built. How many hours or dollars there?

    When I started there were heaps of bikes around. They started to dwindle. 50 class was saved by the RG50 in the 90s. 100 class by the FXR in 2000.

    20 years on. . .
    Don't you look at my accountant.
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  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    the work arround patrs people have spent money and time on are to stay within the rules.
    As i said Speedpro and Dave could easily have just put in a CR80 crank but they didn't because they wanted to stay with the rules.
    They can also have put in CR80 Gearboxs they fit too.
    Firstly, good on them for staying within the rules. They chose to go down that route instead of going 4T.
    Just because Honda and Ducati spent bazillions of dollars developing their electronic packages in MotoGP it didn't give them the authority to demand Dorna abandon the spec ECU rules.
    Just because someone has heavily invested in one area it doesnt give them any authority. Well no more than any other voting MNZ member.


    Why should people who actually stumped up money and committed to the rules be penalized forever to save some money for some who aren't even racing in the on a bike thats not legal who want to change the rules, its ilogical.
    Tough titties, nobody cries more than those who spend money and therefore seem to expect some special status because they are part of "the elite". Commit to the rules by being flexible enough to try new things as the rules develop with the ages. Pretty shit for the 2T guys who have seen the 150 oversize limits etc lifted to suit a few with large wallets wanting bespoke FXR builds. The 2T guys were already dwindling in numbers so I guess their concerns at the time didn't matter...

    This isnt a dig at you BTW.
    No problemo and likewise from here.


    If you want to let in MX engines open up the parts for the other currently legal classes to avoid the expensive work arround parts that the legal bikes are forced to use.
    The MX engines have the capacity handicap to offset the performance parts. (The last proposal even required them to be completely unmodified internals with standard pistons etc.)


    THe only reason to use strike pistons is there is no other cheap option for the 100cc buckets.
    If suitable replacement parts are too hard to get then yes these rules need to be fixed!

    ...10 Char...

  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by speights_bud View Post
    ...10 Char...
    i added more but the wifi is on the fritz so you would have missed it.
    What i am trying to say is it comes down to fairness for if you want to let comp engines in to save money for potential racers how is it logical to not first fix the ules to save money for the ones that are racing legally
    its a double kick in the teeth
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    i added more but the wifi is on the fritz
    What i am trying to say is it comes down to fairness for if you want to let comp engines in to save money for potential racers how is it logical to not first fix the ules to save money for the ones that are racing legally
    Yep I agree, but the attempts to open up the parts for the 2T guys also got poo-pooed many times. I believe the 85 talks started as an alternative in desperation to have modern engines to work with

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Can't max hp without on site dyno. Claiming rule would just end up with people refusing and leaving in a huff, never to return after they spent, I dunno, say, as many hours as I have trying to get an old TF to be competitive for a mate. Need a pipe built. How many hours or dollars there?

    When I started there were heaps of bikes around. They started to dwindle. 50 class was saved by the RG50 in the 90s. 100 class by the FXR in 2000.

    20 years on. . .
    Aussie used to have a max dollar claiming rule they got rid of it i think they run about 5 or more classes to accommodate the different bikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    I cant see the MNZ not resisting the urge "to be seen as Green" by allowing ethanol in the very near future. which would solve the AC 2t heating
    I'd say highly unlikely. They've missed the chance once before. If they did allow it (E85) it would almost certainly be only in 4T's.
    There's still a fear of it's use in 2T's at high level in MNZ.

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by speights_bud View Post
    Yep I agree, but the attempts to open up the parts for the 2T guys also got poo-pooed many times. I believe the 85 talks started as an alternative in desperation to have modern engines to work with
    Moderns cool but those KTM's are to spendy too much a leap forward in design and potential over anything curently legal. just my two cents but if its to e fair maybe make the 85's cylinder reed all the KX's and Cr's were, as were the earlier YZ and RM's.
    they would be the bulk of the cheap mx 85's anyway. sounds like an effective compromise? at the same time let the 100's use competition internals gears clutch and crank same for the 4t's
    it will never fly though. Too many mixed agendas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    I'd say highly unlikely. They've missed the chance once before. If they did allow it (E85) it would almost certainly be only in 4T's.
    There's still a fear of it's use in 2T's at high level in MNZ.
    Rightfully so
    i cant believe they ever let the 400's in F3 so anythings possible.
    I read the mon rules today amazing no ones protested the non std cylinders on the 400's, I can see a massive potential can of worms there when you read it.
    Have a look and see what you think.

    1.2 Multi-cylinder production based two strokes up to 400cc
    5 Specifications for up to 400cc two stroke production based machines:
    The machine must be based on a production motorcycle. No homologation is
    necessary however the Road Race Commission or Technical Steward shall
    have the power to rule whether or not a machine is eligible.

    5.1 Capacity:
    Must not exceed 400cc. Machines with re-bored cylinders must remain within the capacity limit.
    5.2 Engine Specifications:
    a) The crankcase must be from a road going motorcycle and may be examined to ensure compliance, but may be modified without further
    restriction.

    b) Any aftermarket or race piston and ring set may be fitted provided the cylinder remains within the capacity limit.
    c) The original carburettor may be replaced by any brand or type
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    i cant believe they ever let the 400's in F3 so anythings possible.
    I read the mon rules today amazing no ones protested the non std cylinders on the 400's, I can see a massive potential can of worms there when you read it.
    Have a look and see what you think.
    Not really relevant here - but I'd say reluctantly they're legal. The aftermarket barrels are based on the Banshee - which is based on a road going motorcycle engine. Another case of the law of unintended consequences.

  13. #763
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    The Banshee is of course not a road going motorcycle.

    The RZ is however and the Banshee is based on that.

    But back to the thread; it's really about what is available in 2019 to race with.
    You could draw in a pre2010 rule or whatever if the ktm for example stood out and was deemed to be excluded. Std ignitions would hold them back if required but I don't think it is required.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
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  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    2V to 210cc seems fair brings in a few old honda based buckets
    Spencer Bell used to get around Mt Welly very rapidly on his Honda 125 2v single. He would have been totally untouchable on a 210cc.
    Lets go Brandon

  15. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonu View Post
    Spencer Bell used to get around Mt Welly very rapidly on his Honda 125 2v single. He would have been totally untouchable on a 210cc.
    Most of those 125-130's were a fair big bigger than 130cc
    200 sleeve bores in, throw in a DR200 piston a XT225 rod no visable exterior difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
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