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Thread: Ecotrons Engine Management

  1. #196
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    Well the 2nd one only cleans. As did the other places I found. The ones you've post obviously must have started up business in the last few months. Or they were hiding. Or. Didn't look very well. Meh, they're done now. Helped free shipping for 2 sets from eBayto make a match for 3.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Well the 2nd one only cleans. As did the other places I found. The ones you've post obviously must have started up business in the last few months. Or they were hiding. Or. Didn't look very well. Meh, they're done now. Helped free shipping for 2 sets from eBayto make a match for 3.
    LOL
    Err second one blurb
    Welcome to InjectorTech!
    The service we provide at InjectorTech is the cleaning, diagnosing faults and flow testing of petrol injectors. We have installed the very latest technology in injector servicing
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    http://www.msel.co.nz/Blog-1/Find-Ou...Injectors-Flow
    I was meaning more to map excactly what they flowed. just down the road from You Rob
    http://www.msel.co.nz/Contact-information
    Great, thanks for that.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Great, thanks for that.
    The magic of Google
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nath88 View Post
    Hi All,
    Thought I’d drop by to share the findings of my YZ250 EFI project. It has a 2009 CRF450R 50mm throttle body, 3D printed polyurethane throttle boot to a Boyesen RAD valve. Fuel system is returnless with a Walbro GSL-414 pump controlled by a Madhu PWM pump controller/pressure sensor. Fuel filter is a Sytec mini bullet. Injector is the CRF450R 12 hole injector (440cc/min @ 4 bar). It’s controlled with a Microsquirt V3 running MSextra code, triggered by a 20-1 tooth wheel welded to the ignition rotor and a crank sensor from a YFM350.

    It’s tuned in Alpha-N strategy (TPS vs. RPM table), with barometric pressure sensor and intake air temp sensor for compensation. It uses a Wideband O2 and logs either EGT or Fuel pressure.
    First start was about a month ago, have put 3 tanks of fuel through it so far. Most of the tuning has been automatic based on AFR targets, except idle, light throttle and overrun where it needs to be tuned manually. 50mm throttle feels just as linear as the 38mm carb. I haven’t used any accel pump fuelling yet, so I’m hoping that will sharpen the throttle up a bit more.

    Throttle transition at high rpm has been the main tuning issue. When closing and reopening the throttle, the motor would flood and not refire until the revs dropped, so I figured the airflow must drop off at some throttle value. I tried tuning a ledge into the fuel map, it was better than before but still hit and miss, fast roll on was ok, slow roll on or steady part throttle would still flood.
    Then I figured that the airflow wasn't just related to the throttle, but when the engine is firing, the airflow is significantly higher than when it isn’t firing, due to the exhaust vacuum after blowdown pulling charge through the engine.
    Therefore the fuel required for a cycle can be predicted by whether or not the engine fired on the previous cycle, in addition to engine speed and throttle position.
    So my solution is to check whether the cylinder has fired, then adjust the fuel table for the next cycle. The throttle body MAP sensor is connected to the exhaust port and samples the pressure during blowdown. I’ve set up a 2nd fuel table in the ECU with a multiplier for when the pressure is above a threshold, corresponding to the cylinder firing. When the exhaust pressure is high, the main fuel table is unchanged, when low, it is reduced by 50% (will need to be dialled in for various RPM, but seems to work so far). The main fuel table is tuned with the wideband when the motor is firing, then extrapolated into the non-firing low throttle/overrun area. On closing the throttle, once the motor stops firing, fuel flow drops to match the airflow, so the motor doesn’t flood. On opening the throttle, the mixture is correct to initiate firing, then after the first fire fuel flow goes back to the main table value.

    I think with some tuning I should be able to get the transition pretty much seamless. At the moment I'm working on getting the fuel table just right around the transition area, then I'll work on the switch threshold and multiplier values. That said, it's pretty decent already, but I'm a perfectionist.

    Nathan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zsz26QmfAU

    Attachment 328790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    I like your approach very much Nathan. But looking at your third picture, I wonder how much radiator heat will be picked up by the fuel. Some fuel components have a boiling point around 50° C ....
    Quote Originally Posted by oktrg500 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FastFred View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nath88 View Post
    Throttle transition at high rpm has been the main tuning issue. When closing and reopening the throttle, the motor would flood and not refire until the revs dropped, so I figured the airflow must drop off at some throttle value.

    Then I figured that the airflow wasn't just related to the throttle, but when the engine is firing, the airflow is significantly higher than when it isn’t firing, due to the exhaust vacuum after blowdown pulling charge through the engine.
    Great stuff, TeeZee will be very interested.
    My thought too. Waiting for TeeZee now.
    Yes, very interested. Thanks Nathan, for the great idea of using a MAP sensor to measure the pressure changes in the exhaust system so as to see the changes in bulk air flow through the engine, I wish I had thought of that ages ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nath88 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Overun over fueling, Cagiva had the same issue. Yours is a bloody neat set up though.

    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...hmentid=301602
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...hmentid=301601
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...hmentid=301600
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...hmentid=301599
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...hmentid=301598
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...hmentid=301597

    The Cagiva used to keep pumping in fuel on over run, then bog with its rich mixture and then chime in with a potential highside causing burst, when the unburned fuel finally cleared out of the crankcase.
    Pumper carbs can do the same thing, not an issue on karts as they tend to keep on the gas.
    I think What you have done is you have compensated for lower airflow and incomplete combustion on over-run, which was creating a richer mixture in the crankcase, which is what a conventional vacuum metered carb does.
    I found with my system it would never clear once it bogged, just 100% dead until the revs dropped. They must have been using some method of clearing it.
    I guess that's why injected snowmobiles and boats don't have the issue, as soon as the throttle is cut the revs drop.
    Nice article on the Cagiva too, I hadn't seen that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nath88 View Post
    I found with my system it would never clear once it bogged, just 100% dead until the revs dropped.
    Exactly my problem too.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2T Institute View Post
    Same problem everyone else, from Cagiva through to Suter last year at the IOM the longer time at full throttle the worse it will be.That overlay from the ECU on the video is uber cool
    Quote Originally Posted by Nath88 View Post
    Measuring the blowdown pressure pulse rather than the negative (since they should be proportional) gives you a head start on getting the fuel in. I have the pressure sample window set to 140-170° ATDC. The peak moves with RPM, because of the delay along the hose to the MAP sensor, so best to keep it as short and close to the port opening as possible. I have the injection start 10° after the sample window, so the latest pressure value is used to calculate the injector pulsewidth.

    I suspect the pulses develop to full strength over a few cycles, as the return wave strengthens the combustion, so probably no need to get all the fuel in on that first cycle after measurement.

    I am measuring through the powervalve vent, so my pressure values are only indicative for firing or not. With a proper exhaust port measurement you could adjust fuelling based on the pressure rather than just firing/not-firing..
    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Not likely; the 125 cc KTM GP-bike already had an injector in the crankcase that injected through a port below the exhaust port.
    They used it instead of a powerjet and it would only have been logical to use the same setup for full EFI.
    Attachment 328804 Attachment 328805 Attachment 328806

  6. #201
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    http://power4flight.com/wp-content/u...AutoTuning.pdf
    pg 7
     Overrun: defined as high RPM and low throttle (or a "light" load). This case should only be encountered in transient conditions. MBT is used to maximize combustion stability. The light load line starts at 20% throttle and 4000 RPM. It extends through 40% throttle and 7000 RPM. Any condition that is a lower throttle than this line is considered light.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  7. #202
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    I have tried a few different places for injectors, some places seemed to be better than others.

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    This injector in the bellmouth seemed to be the worst of the different positions I have tried.

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    This arrangement seemed the best with the central low speed injector squirting through a slot into the underside of the piston. With the injection cycle set to end 180 deg ATDC. I guess the action of the piston produced a good homogeneous mixture for low speed and small throttle running.

    The two high speed injectors, one each side run together as one logical injector and fire horizontally across the entrance to the B and A ports.

    This system worked best.

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    The current setup is an injector firing vertically down in each B port and one horizontally across the crankcase with the injection stream aimed directly into the incoming inlet air stream.

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    Method-1 ... The obvious thing is to have the low speed/load injector (1x128 g/min) smaller than the high speed/load injector (2x128 g/min) for a total of 256 g/min for high speed/load injection. But this does not work well because there is a hard cutover from fueling in one area of the crankcase volume to an entirely different place and this seems to leave a bubble of fuelless air that is then suddenly swept into the cylinder creating a blip in the engine's output. Green RPM line dips as injector one stops and injector two takes over.

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    Method-2 ... A more successful approach has been to have the low speed/load injector (1x128 g/min) slightly bigger than the high speed/load injector (2x60 g/min). That way the low speed injector never stops and the high speed injector comes and goes as required to supplement the low speed unit (1x128 plus 2x60 for a total of 248 g/min at full load).

    This way there is no discontinuity in mixture strength. The Green RPM line is smooth. Low speed/load injector left red line, high speed/load injector yellow line coming in as required to supplement the low speed one.

    A high RPM 2T that rev,s past 10k rpm must have staged injection because an injector big enough for high load high speed is too big for low speed low load. So staged injectors are required. Lower rpm 2T's can get away with a single injector.

    Method-1 ... (1x128 g/min) .or. (2x128 g/min) for 256 g/min high load injection capacity.
    Method-2 ... (1x128 g/min) plus (2x60 g/min) for 248 g/min high load injection capacity.

    So both methods give much the same injection capacity but method-2 gives a much better transition.

  8. #203
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    Stop fucking about and go straight into the chamber would ya.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Stop fucking about and go straight into the chamber would ya.
    Sounds like that would be the story, but is int a 2T with direct injection time limited to 10,000 rpm or less and the injection pressures required much higher. ... ...
    Factual Facts are based on real Fact and Universal Truths. Alternative Facts by definition are not based on Truth.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastFred View Post
    Sounds like that would be the story, but is int a 2T with direct injection time limited to 10,000 rpm or less and the injection pressures required much higher. ... ...
    Hmmmm. I'm not convinced it makes any difference in regards to time you've got for squirt.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Hmmmm. I'm not convinced it makes any difference in regards to time you've got for squirt.
    Not sure if Frits answers your doubts, but time is everything and it seems to become increasingly in short supply after 9-10,000 rpm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    At WOT, injection has to start much earlier in order to create a good mixture. The latest version, the E-TEC 850, even falls back on a couple of additional indirect injectors in order to counter this problem.
    Attachment 329362
    It takes time for the injector to open, deliver fuel, close and rest.

    And a very significant time problem is the time it actually takes for wet fuel to evaporate and form a homogenous mixture that you can set fire too.

    Direct cylinder injection after exhaust port closure has at best 90 deg or a quarter of the time of indirect crankcase injection.

    Direct injection after BDC and while the exhaust is still open gives you half the time at best of indirect crankcase injection and if you are willing to risk having raw fuel short circuit directly out the exhaust, direct cylinder injection has at best 3/4 of the time of crankcase injection. Crankcase injection can obviously be for the full 360 deg of crank rotation.

    Time is short enough after 10,000 rpm to get everything done even when you have the full 360 deg of crank rotation to work with and cutting that time in half or into a quarter is probably less likely to workout well.

    As well as time, pressure is another issue. Trying to inject into 10 bar cylinder compression pressure with 3 bar fuel pressure is just not going to happen. So at some point on the compression stroke injection is not going to be possible.

    With direct cylinder injection and subtracting out the time lost to fuel homogenous issues, compression pressure, ignition advance, combustion and power stroke to exhaust port opening you have very little time left to work with compared to indirect injection.

    Indirect Injection time possible ='s 100% of the time available for 360 deg's of crank rotation.

    Direct Cylinder Injection time possible is obviously much less.

  12. #207
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    It doesn't need to start after the exhaust closes though. Some can go down the spout and get shoved back in by the returning pulse the same as it is with the system you have now. No?

    But with enough volume, time lessens. So three in the head.

    Good for cooling too.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    It doesn't need to start after the exhaust closes though.
    True, how early would you start and where would you end the injection cycle so you still have enough time for the wet fuel to evaporate and become a homogenous mixture before ignition.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    True, how early would you start and where would you end the injection cycle so you still have enough time for the wet fuel to evaporate and become a homogenous mixture before ignition.
    I'd start spraying as soon as the inlet ports closed or a little before. If it's hitting the top of the piston it's gonna mist up real nice I would have thought. That being my underatanding of why direct inject was more efficient.

  15. #210
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    Yes, reportedly works well at low speed <10k rpm, maybe you could put some numbers together to see how likely it is at 13k rpm.

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