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Thread: Ecotrons Engine Management

  1. #91
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    8th August 2015 - 02:07
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    Thanks for sharing your knowledge Speedpro. great stuff.

    Yes, 180* crank firing every 360*

    I made up this trigger wheel-



    and spun it over on the starter with no fuel and ignition unplugged.

    I stuck an led/resistor accross the injector plug in place of the injector so i can see when it squirts.

    with revs per cycle set to 1 in advanced calibrations, N_Cyl set to 1 and 301cc.

    it's Squirting on inj 1 only (thats fine) every 2 revolutions. (thats not. haha)
    Unplugging the pickup makes it squirt every revolution. (on the map pulses).

    This ties in with what you say about an 8 tooth wheel.
    not sure what rpm it will compute from that but will see what i can fabricate.

    The trigger wheel has to be quite small (60mm) to clear the electronic ignition that sits where the points used to be.
    My other option would be to mount triggers on the flywheel.

    I didn't use kwak/ecotrons throttle body as i got the ecu 2nd hand without T.B. and f650 one is the same area as the 2cv twin choke carb.
    Getting the plug and play kit from ecotrons was just too pricey to be worth it, mainly due to inport taxes and postage.

  2. #92
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    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    Are you sure injector #1 is firing "every" crank revolution? You have the trigger on the cam so it is running at 1/2 speed or only once per complete 4-stroke cycle. When mounted on the crank it rotates twice for every complete cycle and relies on the MAP sensor to determine which cylinder to inject and ignite and the crank trigger precisely marks crank position on any particular revolution. My suggestion of 2X the teeth on the trigger wheel was thinking the trigger wheel was on the crankshaft and was just a way of tricking the ECU into thinking that the crankshaft had actually made 2 revolutions and it was now time to fire #1 injector again.

    There is no need to be concerned about what revs the ECU thinks the engine is doing. You can reconfigure the rev points in each table so all you need to do is edit the range of revs to suit what the ECU "thinks" is happening. You want a number of rev points to define the map so you get some accuracy. As you are riding on the road you could tune it with a Lambda sensor. It will have to be a wideband sensor as it is likely to be off by quite a bit at the start.

    You will have to define the cylinder capacity so that the values you enter into the maps fall within a valid range. Shouldn't be too hard on a low revving low tune engine like the 2CV. The map values will also depend on your injector size.

  3. #93
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    8th August 2015 - 02:07
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    Thanks again Speedpro.
    The EFI trigger is on the crank as you suggest.
    In the pics the ignition trigger is on the camshaft below the crankshaft, it has 2 magnets so ignition fires twice per camshaft rev, (wasted spark) but I'm not using that to trigger efi. keeping the ignition and efi separate at least for now.
    I see what you mean about rpm doesn't matter, I can change the tables to suit.

    I have VE etc maps from a fella in Italy who has done this before with a 2cv using slightly different ecotrons ecu. So I have a base table for the engine to get me started, might need a wee tweak or two. :-)


    edit: just out of curiosity i set cyl num to 2, both injectors now firing, :-) 180* apart and once every other rev as per the ninja 250.
    If I unplug the trigger, it fires both in synch, every rev, in time with the map pulses. Don't think i can run it without the trigger tho.
    Will see what happens with an 8 tooth trigger. looks like that's the answer. cheers Speedpro.

    edit2: just tried trigger wheel with 4 short teeth. works the same as 1 long, 3 short, and doesn't report a ckp error.
    so i guess it doesn't care about tooth length as it gets it's synch from the map pulse. 8 short teeth will do. ;-)

  4. #94
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    8th August 2015 - 02:07
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    8 tooth trigger doing the trick.




    Squirting every rev. need to do some plumbing and wiring now and see if she'll start.
    Then i can play with phase angle, RPM etc settings to get her running smooth.



  5. #95
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    8th August 2015 - 02:07
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    She runs !!!!!!!!

    idles, revs, survives throttle blips and doesn't die when you slam the throttle shut.
    seems to be reading the RPM correctly too.
    reckon she's a bit on the rich side, judging by the plugs, but i'll play with that another day.
    today I celebrate.

  6. #96
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    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    Excellent. video next . . .

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbadbob View Post
    She runs !!!!!!!!

    idles, revs, survives throttle blips and doesn't die when you slam the throttle shut.
    seems to be reading the RPM correctly too.
    reckon she's a bit on the rich side, judging by the plugs, but i'll play with that another day.
    today I celebrate.
    That is great, well done......

  8. #98
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    8th August 2015 - 02:07
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    Cog

    Thanks guys.
    Now I have to re-build the machine. she's in bits just now.
    I'll get back to you with a video in about 6 months.
    Lots of work to do yet but the guy in Italy say his runs best when tuned a bit on the rich side too so maybe I don't have to tune too much.

    As a matter of interest, I reckon it's using the MAP sensor to measure RPM. based on my "one rev per cycle" setting.
    Also at one point last night, the trigger wheel came loose when I whacked the throttle open, she fluffed and died. however when I re-started without the trigger wheel she idled ok but as soon as I opened the throttle she fluffed and died again.
    proves I can't run without the trigger wheel.

    This is a good learning experience.

  9. #99
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    18th April 2007 - 18:51
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    I have to say I haven't read the whole thread word by word but I have had issues with a microsquirt (I know it's different) in the past with having long teeth like you do. Mainly that a long tooth(longer than the sensor) can cause unpredictable timing as described about 1/3 down this page with the diagrams http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/pickups.htm

    No idea if it will cause issues for you but just a possible heads up. Keep up the work, will be interesting to watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbadbob View Post
    8 tooth trigger doing the trick.




    Squirting every rev. need to do some plumbing and wiring now and see if she'll start.
    Then i can play with phase angle, RPM etc settings to get her running smooth.



  10. #100
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    5th April 2004 - 20:04
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbadbob View Post
    Thanks guys.
    Now I have to re-build the machine. she's in bits just now.
    I'll get back to you with a video in about 6 months.
    Lots of work to do yet but the guy in Italy say his runs best when tuned a bit on the rich side too so maybe I don't have to tune too much.

    As a matter of interest, I reckon it's using the MAP sensor to measure RPM. based on my "one rev per cycle" setting.
    Also at one point last night, the trigger wheel came loose when I whacked the throttle open, she fluffed and died. however when I re-started without the trigger wheel she idled ok but as soon as I opened the throttle she fluffed and died again.
    proves I can't run without the trigger wheel.

    This is a good learning experience.
    Does MAP not stand for Mass Absolute Pressure with Exotrons? I can't understand how it would figure out it's revs from that.

  11. #101
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    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Does MAP not stand for Mass Absolute Pressure with Exotrons? I can't understand how it would figure out it's revs from that.
    The value of the MAP sensor fluctuates with every revolution. That being the case it could easily be used to determine the speed of rotation. It most definitely is used to determine which cylinder is where in the 4-stroke cycle on the Kawasaki 250 installations but I'm not sure if it's used to monitor engine speed. Bob's install could be used to determine if it does. If the ECU thinks the engine is doing twice the speed it actually is then the trigger disc is used, if the engine speed is correct in Ecotrons then the MAP sensor is being used.

  12. #102
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    8th August 2015 - 02:07
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    Thanks for the heads-up and the link Bass-Treble. Good food for thought.
    As far as I can tell, the ecotrons ecu only looks at the rising edge of the positive going pulse at the start of the tooth and ignores the negative going one at the end of the tooth. also I "think" it uses a 2 volt threshold rather than the zero crossing shown in your link. don't quote me on that though. As you say, microsquirt is different.
    The ninja 250 CDI uses a long tooth to determine which cylinder to fire for ignition and Ecotrons copes with that, and even the "short" teeth on the Ninja are a good bit longer than the Coil head so it looks like i'll be ok.

    DREW- you got me thinking about the RPM count.
    On the ninja... the ecu expects to see 2 revs per cycle, 4 trigger pulses per rev = 8 pulses per cycle and 1 MAP pulse per cycle. (it only reads cyl 1 MAP)
    I have set it to expect 1 rev per cycle and using an 8 tooth wheel gives 8 pulses per rev = 8 pulses per cycle and 1 MAP pulse per cycle (I'm reading both cylinders)
    If it counts cycles using MAP, and RPM using trigger, then this will compute correct RPM.

    I hope this install can help us understand more about the Ecotrons ECU. If anyone has any checks they want me to do, feel free to ask.

    I'm going to play with the angle BTDC when the injector fires but I have a long inlet manifold so it might not make much difference in my case.
    I think it fires injector 1 on the 6th trigger pulse after each MAP pulse, would need a 3 channel digital scope to check that though.
    MAP pulse voltage drop threshold for a valid pulse can be set in advanced cal. ;-)

    Speedpro- can you tell me how to link one o2 sensor to both injectors in software and also how to disable feedback but still read o2?
    I probably won't need to, but knowledge is king! one of these days I'd like to try using 2 injectors, 1 per cylinder, but don't think that's going to be do-able with the ninja ECU.

  13. #103
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    8th August 2015 - 02:07
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    Well... I bust an oil cooler pipe and had to get a new cooler so the project has been on hold...
    New cooler now fitted so we're back on track.
    Something's up with the O2 sensor though as it's reading ok for a few seconds then drops to 14mv once it warms up.
    I have a spare sensor but want to be sure i'm not flooding it with unburned fuel before i replace it.



  14. #104
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    Posted this because someone asked me about the jerky response they are getting now that they are running split injection. Ie they are using a small injector for slow running and a large injector for power. I think the issue is in the size of the step on the map at the point where the ECU changes from the small injector to the larger one.

    The Ecotrons Alpha-N map is not a fuel map but a map of predicted changes in engine load (torque) with respect to TPS and RPM.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It is like a stair case and to keep the Load steps even, it is possible to cluster the rpm steps around the area of rapid changes in Load (torque). And on my dyno graph that is 7,500 to 9,500 rpm (yellow line). Above that the power goes up with rpm but the change in Load is a lot flatter. So you can have quite wide rpm steps below and above where the engine comes onto the pipe and cluster the rpm steps where the Load (torque (yellow line)) curve climbs rapidly so as to have even predicted Load steps across the complete rpm range from 3,000 to 13,000.

    Ie on my map the first rpm point is at 3K rpm, the second is 6k the third is 7k then 7.5k, 7.75k, 8k, 8.5k, 9k and rpm step 9 is 9.5k step 10 is 11k then 12.250 and finally 13,250 rpm. So the spread of rpm points is chosen to get even changes in the Load steps.

    My TPS steps are 0, 10, 12, 15, 18, 20, 26, 31, 36, 41, 46, 51, 61, 71, 85, 98. there is much greater changes in air flow at low TPS than there is above 70%. If you look at the dyno graph everything above 70% has pretty much the same power output.

    What I think happens when split injection does not work properly and jerks all around the place is that when the small injector gets to a load cell step that is to big and would max it out the ECU swaps to the big injector which squirts to much fuel for the rpm (because the min on time for the big injector flows to much fuel) and the rpm drops back below the small injectors last effective load cell and the air/fuel clears and the rpm slams backup and the cycle violently repeats itself. Now a smaller big injector might help but a disparate size in the load steps can be the real problem.

    This will not be confined to a set rpm position on the map but a patch of Load cells where the effective differences in predicted Load is to great. And I expect the ECU's hysteresis between injectors will play a part here too.

    The trick is to group the RPM columns and TPS rows in such a way that the changes between adjacent Load cells in any direction are much the same.

  15. #105
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    11th August 2015 - 01:42
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    Ecotrons rpm limits

    I am looking to install the ecotrons unit on a single 250cc 2 stroke. Would like to incorporate the control of ignition timing with the EFI. The ecotrons web site shows the compatible cdi system they offer has an upper rpm limit of 8,000 rpm's. Is that correct? If so has anyone found a way around the low rpm limit?

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