South Africa is going (further) down thew toilet

[Viking01]

I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's just, I'm saying it was a decision made in the middle of a War - and the alternative (Germany winning or Japan attaining victory in the pacific) would have objectively far worse.

I'd just like to challenge the last part of your statement.

While victory by Germany / Japan would have been far worse, this
statement somehow implies to me that all food supplies extracted
from India during WW2 necessarily went towards supporting the war
effort.

And that had the Bengalis not starved, then some troops fighting in the
Pacific war would have gone unfed and the war effort have been severely
compromised.

And that is the point (among several) that Mukerjee was contesting
in her book.

With evidence in her book showing that some shipments of food ex India
at the time of the famine were being directed to the UK (and even then,
not for military purposes or for direct consumption).

Churchill was called out for his dislike of both India and Indians on many
occasions. His personal history abounds with quotes like:

"They are a beastly people with a beastly religion"

(though he was happy enough to exploit the Hindu - Muslim divide for
political control purpose within India prior to its independence)

And when challenged on the subject of the Bengal Famine:

"the famines were India's fault for breeding like rabbits"

(as if their hunger at that time was the fault of their fecundity, as
opposed to the level of Indian material support being provided for
the war effort).

By the early 1940's, the Indian Independence movement was gathering
strength, and "the writing was on the wall" as far as India remaining
a British colony post war.

Churchill was hardly inclined to feel favourably towards the directing
of food shipments to the Indians, or better, letting them retain enough
of their own crops in order to combat the famine in 1943.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767 <-- Sections 3 and 4

While feeding troops fighting the Japanese might have been an excuse
up to mid 1943, after that point, Churchill then appeared more focused
on diverting some resources into storage in UK for the feeding of local
civilian population (and Europe post war). As discussed in the following
article.

https://harpers.org/blog/2010/11/chu...sree-mukerjee/

[TheDemonLord]

A ridiculously sweeping statement doesn't require refuting.

It is a refutation in itself.

So that's a "No, I can't refute it" then...

Glad you agree.

[oldrider]

Apparently the media and South Africa government are calling Trump's tweets about white persecution lies and conspiracy.

Here is what is actually happening:- https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses...36346908430336 Someone is stirring that shit up. Time will tell.

[pritch]

Jeez John! It's hard to tell the truth of it but you definitely won't find the truth by reading that prick or Lauren Southern. They're both known white supremacists.

[Katman]

They're both known white supremacists.

Is 'white supremacist' the new 'anti-semite'?

[pritch]

Is 'white supremacist' the new 'anti-semite'?

No. It's the new Nazi. The anti-semites are currently busy in the British Labour Party.

[pete376403]

Why is it called anti-semitic? Call it anti jewish and be done with it. Semitic is a made up phrase that tries to give legitimacy to one particular religions fables (Sem = shem = one of the sons of noah?) https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...e-the-semites/

[oldrider]

Why is it called anti-semitic?

Follow that question to it's conclusion but be prepared for a very long investigative journey - try not to become emotionally involved - you will be absolutely amazed.

[jasonu]

Is 'white supremacist' the new 'anti-semite'?

It is if you get all your dirt from the Herald.

[Navy Boy]

If you look at somewhere like Zimbabwe under Mugabe which provided the model for South Africa to follow, there's probably little difference compared with North Korea in terms of poverty levels and disenfrangement apart from the elite minority. Give it a few years and S.A might be in the same position.

Sadly Blackbird there's no 'Might' about it. SA is following the Zimbabwean model of the ruling party simply being inept/corrupt and unable to see beyond their own benefit.

Say what you like about blaming the sins of the past, and there were many, what the SA Government is doing now is simply wrong. On any level you may wish to view it.

Saying that someone isn't allowed to own more than X hectares of land is wrong however you look at it. The sad thing is that history tells us that the new 'Owners' of said land will almost certainly not have the expertise/will to utilise it to anything like its potential. All this in the name of 'Rightful re-distribution' you understand.

Imagine if someone turned up and gave you notice that your nice house/small holding in NZ was now their property. All based on something that may or may not have taken place well before any of the people involved were even alive... How would most react to that happening to them I wonder?

SA will go the way of Zimbabwe in that it will become a total basket case, totally reliant on foreign aid simply to survive as a going concern/functioning democracy (There's a whole other argument) in the international order.

Oh and how do I know? Well I grew up in SA through those nasty Apartheid years. I no longer live there - There are very good reasons for this as can be seen by the latest state of affairs...

[Blackbird]

Sadly Blackbird there's no 'Might' about it. SA is following the Zimbabwean model of the ruling party simply being inept/corrupt and unable to see beyond their own benefit.

Yep, "might" was slightly tongue in cheek! It's interesting that when white rule collapsed, a significant number of white South Africans came to NZ. We employed quite a few in engineering-related trades. Most didn't settle well and moved on to Australia. I'll leave it to you to theorize why. There was a second wave a few years later with entirely different attitudes and values. Most settled well and were still there when I retired. It was almost like two separate cultures.

[jafagsx250]

Yep, "might" was slightly tongue in cheek! It's interesting that when white rule collapsed, a significant number of white South Africans came to NZ. We employed quite a few in engineering-related trades. Most didn't settle well and moved on to Australia. I'll leave it to you to theorize why. There was a second wave a few years later with entirely different attitudes and values. Most settled well and were still there when I retired. It was almost like two separate cultures.

Because you get paid more.

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[Grumph]

Yep, "might" was slightly tongue in cheek! It's interesting that when white rule collapsed, a significant number of white South Africans came to NZ. We employed quite a few in engineering-related trades. Most didn't settle well and moved on to Australia. I'll leave it to you to theorize why. There was a second wave a few years later with entirely different attitudes and values. Most settled well and were still there when I retired. It was almost like two separate cultures.

He's right. The first wave went to aussie when they couldn't assimilate here. The "white Australia" policy was very attractive to that lot.
The later ones have assimilated very well in the main - probably more open minded.

[eldog]

It was my experience the first preferred destination was Australia.
they came to NZ because they could easily become NZ citizens after 3? Years then go to Australia as a NZder.
IMHO definitely 2 waves.
1st who thought it was there right to live in Aussie as they visualised NZ as a back water. They generally don’t work in blue collar jobs. Often had extra high opinion/loud
2nd who wanted to escape SA and work in any job they can. 50% very good at what they do and reliable, the rest tend to move about the place.

i work with 1 who I personally give extra work too if I can. He’s a workaholic, would die of boredom when he retires.

Myself I would like to see the minimum term increased past 5 years maybe to 10 working full time.

[Blackbird]

He's right. The first wave went to aussie when they couldn't assimilate here. The "white Australia" policy was very attractive to that lot.
The later ones have assimilated very well in the main - probably more open minded.

Yep, that's exactly the reason!