Bain, what's the answer going to be?

[JimO]

So all the evidence was available in 1994 then?

just what the cops wanted to use.........then all that pesky "xtra" evidence was destroyed

[Grahameeboy]

just what the cops wanted to use.........then all that pesky "xtra" evidence was destroyed

Another Police conspiracy then.....:zzzz:

[James Deuce]

Another Police conspiracy then.....:zzzz:

It's not a conspiracy. It's a series of amateurish cock ups. Right through the current retrial, the police have been forced to admit to moving things like cartridge cases at the scene, moving one body so that the blood ran magically uphill, and misidentifying the lense from a pair of glasses as belonging to David.

[Grahameeboy]

It's not a conspiracy. It's a series of amateurish cock ups. Right through the current retrial, the police have been forced to admit to moving things like cartridge cases at the scene, moving one body so that the blood ran magically uphill, and misidentifying the lense from a pair of glasses as belonging to David.

So still a conspiracy then?

[smoky]

So on that theory, no-one should be denied bail.

And the only one who REALLY knows, is bain himself.

I doubt that he'll get compo - does everyone who gets found not guilty get it? would you be happy with a patched gang member being found not guilty getting compo for his trouble?

Man your head is so far up your own arse .......
It's one thing to express a point of view as to if he should get compensation or not, but comparing him to a patched gang member!!! What a...:tugger:

[98tls]

Was thinking, maybe he could use the jersey to do a Persil whiter than white advert.... See KBs taking this case apart thread by thread.

[James Deuce]

So still a conspiracy then?

No. Listen very closely. They made cocks ups and have admitted to them. Never blame conspiracy when cock up will do.

[Grahameeboy]

Man your head is so far up your own arse .......
It's one thing to express a point of view as to if he should get compensation or not, but comparing him to a patched gang member!!! What a...:tugger:

Sorry but Marty is right...not guilty is not guilty who ever you are and the same rights available should be provided...

[oldrider]

Do you think the jury took into account that it was Friday and anything but a quick decision would mean another stuffed up weekend?

Now "they" (the jury and David) are free and out of there!

Justice New Zealand style. :shifty: Hmmmmmm. :zzzz:

[Grahameeboy]

No. Listen very closely. They made cocks ups and have admitted to them. Never blame conspiracy when cock up will do.

Well it may have started as a conspiracy....:bleh:

[James Deuce]

Tampered with?? If investigators have a crystal ball and can plot every step they make into a scene with no care given to finding out if people are dead or not, or if someone with a gun is still actually in the scene then they can go into a scene and not 'tamper'. Unfortunately they don't.

A large chunk thrown away?? He had been found guilty and the Court of Appeal had dismissed his appeal. The investigation happened 14 years ago and things were a lot different back then forensically. The evidence thrown away had very little chance of being useful after 14 years anyway, the DNA would more than likely have completely degraded. As with the blood stains on David they would just have been explained away after being analysed, he would have 'remembered' doing things to suit the results. Experts that Karam employed that didn't agree with his version were ignored, how's that for being unbiassed.

Not Guilty may be a reference, but it's a far cry from not being culpable.

I'll accept that you are thick, I don't know if I have to forgive you for it.

Perhaps David and Chris Kahui could start a club - I hope they wave.

A bit bitter aren't we? Part of the reason the prosecution case didn't stand up is because the quality of the evidence presented was dubious.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. We weren't on the Jury. We didn't see the full picture. The cornerstone of our legal system is trial by jury. Part of that is also accepting that a jury may make a decision that you don't like.

[James Deuce]

The only conspiracy I'm interested in is the one where beer keeps disappearing from my fridge. I bet David Bain and Joe Karam did it!

[smoky]

Sorry but Marty is right...not guilty is not guilty who ever you are and the same rights available should be provided...

If they spent 13 years in prison for a crime they have been found not guilty for, no problems

My point was why make the comparison

[Oakie]

Is your cousin on facebook too ?

Dunno. He is now a District Court Judge though so he probably has the brains to arrange that.

[elevenhundred]

Bullshit they did

Yeah they did, didn't you see the TV coverage when the cop was getting reamed out by the defense on why they destroyed it.

[Grahameeboy]

If they spent 13 years in prison for a crime they have been found not guilty for, no problems

My point was why make the comparison

So you agree with his comparison which is what is was??...glad we got that resolved...

[Guzza]

Reasonable doubt. Theres things that dont seem to fit on both sides. One thing that did come out of the retrial was the sloppyness on the part of police in how they processed the scene and gathered their evidence. They themselves admit they could have done alot better.

Given a different case, I cant help thinking that level of poor practice would be enough to have it thrown out.

[98tls]

Reasonable doubt. Theres things that dont seem to fit on both sides. One thing that did come out of the retrial was the sloppyness on the part of police in how they processed the scene and gathered their evidence. They themselves admit they could have done alot better.

Given a different case, I cant help thinking that level of poor practice would be enough to have it thrown out. I blame the weather,no normal member of the public lives in Dunners so it goes without saying that no cop worth there salt would ever consider working there,futhermore DB took this into consideration and all things considered decided 12 years in the big house a small price to pay:niceone:

[sinned]

Interesting poll on kiwiblog http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/ where 74% consider David did it. That is off course a different question to "guilty beyond reasonable doubt".

[pete376403]

Not necessarily a case for compensation - Rex Haig didn't get any; not sure about David Dougherty.

[JimO]

Not necessarily a case for compensation - Rex Haig didn't get any; not sure about David Dougherty.

David got 900k

[98tls]

I see the gap has closed on the KB poll since the verdict announced.:killingme:killingmeFucking morons.

[Teambwr47]

David Bain not guilty............

Right o so therefore the defence case that Robin Bain was the killer must be true then eh??

To be the killer you'd have to accept the following.......


It was a lucky guess when David Bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies

Again a lucky guess hen DB told police officer they are all dead

The 25 minute gap between DB finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood.

The bruise on David’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence

The lens from his glasses found in Stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed OR someone else had borrowed the glasses

The lack of fresh injuries on Robin despite the massive struggle with Stephen is just the product of healthy living

David’s finger prints on gun are from a previous time

David telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience

Stephen’s blood on David’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – OR someone else borrowed his clothes

Robin managed to execute his family on a full bladder

The lock and key to the rifle being found in David’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there

Robin decided to wash David’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under Steven’s finger nails

David’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies

The Ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion Bain was pretending to have a fit

Robin Bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide

That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared David.

Also that having just shot his family, and knowing David was due home, that Robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message

Robin would decide David deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder

Robin Bain placed fibres from Davids jersey under Stephen’s finger nails

Robin Bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible?

That Robin Bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular Stephen Bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey before killing himself?

That there is a logical reason that David Bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run.

That Robin Bain put blood on the inside of David’s duvet and on his light switch

That there is an innocent explanation for why David says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine.

That Laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of David

That the “family meeting” David called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill.

That Robin Bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head.

That even though David told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided David was the only one who deserved to live

That David either imagined hearing Laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death

That Laniet allegations of incent with Robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half.

That Robin Bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or DNA being left at the scene.

That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders Bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi.

That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to Robin was not placed there by David but fell onto its edge from Robin’s arms.

That a sickly Robin Bain managed to overpower his teendage son who put up a furious fight

That Robin Bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself

David bain has been found not guilty as a result of a concerted effort to create doubt in the mind of the public and jurors. Oh yeah the jurors, none of whom will not have heard of the case prior to the trial.

I wonder what will happen when compensation is sought and the reasonable doubt/jury is replaced by balance of evidence as viewed by a barrister.

[scumdog]

The evidence I fully don't understand is the rifle that was used - Robin could not have pointed at his head and reached the trigger sufficiently as I understand. Unless Robin used a rig, someone else had to pull the trigger on him.

Yes he could.

And others have done so - I've seen it.

[Trudes]

So for those who are pleased with the outcome or believe justice has been done blah blah etc etc... aren't you glad we don't still have capital punishment here in NZ?

[Skyryder]

Do you think the jury took into account that it was Friday and anything but a quick decision would mean another stuffed up weekend?

Now "they" (the jury and David) are free and out of there!

Justice New Zealand style. :shifty: Hmmmmmm. :zzzz:\

My thoughts too. Seems like they could not get out fast enough.

Still better to see and guilty man go free than an innocent one convicted.





Skyryder

[Pussy]

The jurors heard a lot more evidence than we have.....

[peasea]

It's not a conspiracy. It's a series of amateurish cock ups. Right through the current retrial, the police have been forced to admit to moving things like cartridge cases at the scene, moving one body so that the blood ran magically uphill, and misidentifying the lense from a pair of glasses as belonging to David.

Finally! A whiff of a cop bashing thread....:jerry:

I knew kb wouldn't let me down.

Not too many coppers posting here eh? Must be passing the hat round for DB's compo huh?

[scumdog]

Good for him. The guy deserves a medal.

Nah, he ain't THAT good shot - he wasted at least three more bullets than he needed to getting the job done...

[98tls]

Yes he could.

And others have done so - I've seen it. He possibly borrowed Davids jersey,arms on that thing would have been well stretchy.See the jersey raises its ugly thread.....doh. head again.

[peasea]

or the socks............buy one get one free...:msn-wink:

With dipping sauce.

[scumdog]

Finally! A whiff of a cop bashing thread....:jerry:

I knew kb wouldn't let me down.

Not too many coppers posting here eh? Must be passing the hat round for DB's compo huh?

Who gives a fuck?

I still get paid each fortnight....

[mynameis]

0o0oh god here we go :lol: I think he should have just stood a KB trial :laugh:

Where's my beer.

[peasea]

Finally! A whiff of a cop bashing thread....:jerry:

I knew kb wouldn't let me down.

Not too many coppers posting here eh? Must be passing the hat round for DB's compo huh?

Oops, the southern collection must be complete. $2.50 all up I'm told.

[peasea]

Who gives a fuck?

I still get paid each fortnight....

That's all that matters. Especially in murder cases.

[Taz]

It's over.... Let it go....

[peasea]

It's over.... Let it go....

That was a hell of a post from someone who wants to 'let it go'.

[scumdog]

Two minutes - not bad....

[peasea]

Two minutes - not bad....

Is that what your missus said?

[scumdog]

Is that what your missus said?

Yup.

Just after you left.

Said that included the time it took you to unzip and rezip yer fly...:blank:

[Sparky Bills]

Im not convinced either.
Ive been following this closley. As what has been said about them hearing more evidence... Yes thats true.
BUT! Some very interesting points have been brought out into the public eye.

AND REALLY!!... WHAT IS WITH THAT NITTED JUMPER!!!?

[peasea]

Yup.

Just after you left.

Said that included the time it took you to unzip and rezip yer fly...:blank:

Me and your missus? I could be sooooo rude and even though you're a copper I won't go there. So many comments sprang to mind but I think you have some guns, so no, I'll be good.

Tell your missus I'm sorry about the mess but it should help to clear up her complexion.

[puddytat]

AND REALLY!!... WHAT IS WITH THAT NITTED JUMPER!!!?

It was what finally pushed Robin Bain over the edge.....

[nallac]

David Bain guilty............

yes

10 chars

[scumdog]

Me and your missus? I could be sooooo rude and even though you're a copper I won't go there. So many comments sprang to mind but I think you have some guns, so no, I'll be good.

Tell your missus I'm sorry about the mess but it should help to clear up her complexion.

Nah, sweet-as, she's not worried about the complexion of her toes!:bleh:

[Trudes]

No. Listen very closely. They made cocks ups and have admitted to them. Never blame conspiracy when cock up will do.

"Because we're not at home to Mr. Cock-up".
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SX5aS2cUn10&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SX5aS2cUn10&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[smoky]

Yeah they did, didn't you see the TV coverage when the cop was getting reamed out by the defense on why they destroyed it.

I think they chucked out once they found out there was going to be a retrial

[Genestho]

Have to admire both David and Karam's determination since day one.
They never gave up.

Wonder what David will seriously do with his life now?

...I guess he's had a long time to make some future plans...

I wish him the best of luck in finding normality again, if ever.

[98tls]

Me and your missus? I could be sooooo rude and even though you're a copper I won't go there. So many comments sprang to mind but I think you have some guns, so no, I'll be good.

Tell your missus I'm sorry about the mess but it should help to clear up her complexion. Enough eh,his Mrs is one of the best and even though its only the interweb doesnt deserve this shit from either of ya.

[Motu]

They should of hung him first time round,and saved the country a shit load of money.You can always say sorry after....i always do.

[AllanB]

They should of hung him first time round,and saved the country a shit load of money.You can always say sorry after....i always do.

Print it and I'll buy the T-shirt :niceone:

I'm sick of it - it's over, may he buy a nice house somewhere and start dating his female admirers:chase:

[marty]

David got 900k

difference there was that he was proven INNOCENT, not just found not guilty. he's no angel, but i don't begrudge him the compo money one bit

[Teambwr47]

Print it and I'll buy the T-shirt :niceone:

I'm sick of it - it's over, may he buy a nice house somewhere and start dating his female admirers:chase:

Not sure if you saw 'close up' tonight but two such female admirers also known as complete loons were on there.

They 'befriended' Bain a long time ago as a complete stranger, convicted of multiple murders,in prison even taking their kids to visit him??

[Skyryder]

David Bain not guilty............

Right o so therefore the defence case that Robin Bain was the killer must be true then eh??

To be the killer you'd have to accept the following.......


It was a lucky guess when David Bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies

Again a lucky guess hen DB told police officer they are all dead

The 25 minute gap between DB finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood.

The bruise on David’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence

The lens from his glasses found in Stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed OR someone else had borrowed the glasses

The lack of fresh injuries on Robin despite the massive struggle with Stephen is just the product of healthy living

David’s finger prints on gun are from a previous time

David telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience

Stephen’s blood on David’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – OR someone else borrowed his clothes

Robin managed to execute his family on a full bladder

The lock and key to the rifle being found in David’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there

Robin decided to wash David’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under Steven’s finger nails

David’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies

The Ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion Bain was pretending to have a fit

Robin Bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide

That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared David.

Also that having just shot his family, and knowing David was due home, that Robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message

Robin would decide David deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder

Robin Bain placed fibres from Davids jersey under Stephen’s finger nails

Robin Bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible?

That Robin Bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular Stephen Bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey before killing himself?

That there is a logical reason that David Bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run.

That Robin Bain put blood on the inside of David’s duvet and on his light switch

That there is an innocent explanation for why David says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine.

That Laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of David

That the “family meeting” David called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill.

That Robin Bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head.

That even though David told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided David was the only one who deserved to live

That David either imagined hearing Laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death

That Laniet allegations of incent with Robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half.

That Robin Bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or DNA being left at the scene.

That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders Bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi.

That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to Robin was not placed there by David but fell onto its edge from Robin’s arms.

That a sickly Robin Bain managed to overpower his teendage son who put up a furious fight

That Robin Bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself

David bain has been found not guilty as a result of a concerted effort to create doubt in the mind of the public and jurors. Oh yeah the jurors, none of whom will not have heard of the case prior to the trial.

I wonder what will happen when compensation is sought and the reasonable doubt/jury is replaced by balance of evidence as viewed by a barrister.

And it only took the jurors six hours to arrive at not guilty. If there was ever a case to bin the jury system this was it................


Skyryder

[Mom]

They couldn't present all the evidence. They threw a big chunk of it away once David was jailed.

I am not sure they just threw it away, they allowed a heap of it to be burned when they agreed to the house being burned down very shortly after the murders took place.


the only one who REALLY knows, is bain himself.


Guess he wont be telling any different story than the one presented in court while he is alive. He is actually the only one that knows what happened, his truth as spoken now is he is not guilty of the murders.


I wish him the best of luck in finding normality again, if ever.

You tell them sister! If ever indeed!

[MVnut]

Were you a prosecution witness or something bwr???:tugger:

[chucky19]

A bit bitter aren't we? Part of the reason the prosecution case didn't stand up is because the quality of the evidence presented was dubious.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. We weren't on the Jury. We didn't see the full picture. The cornerstone of our legal system is trial by jury. Part of that is also accepting that a jury may make a decision that you don't like.

Any evidence can be made to look dubious given the system we have here, where the prosecution have to provide full disclosure of every scrap of information they have, but the defence can turn up on the day in Court to present their own 'expert'. No defence expert was subject to scrutiny of their scientific methodology, peer review or intelligent cross examination by an experienced practitioner in the same field. I wasn't in the jury but I do know at least one of their experts was either lying or totally incompetent.

How many defence experts came up with statements that began 'consistent with....'???

I can accept the system we have, doesn't mean I have to like it - unless I'm guilty.

[xgnr]

a good result. i will never know how they managed to find impartial kiwi jurors... theres very few that havent heard of and formed an opinion of the case.

Its all a bit warped really... the only people (it seems) that can sit on jury service are the old and unemployed.

Is this representative of the accused peers ? (maybe it is in a lot of cases lol)

Cheers

Stu

[Marmoot]

Can "beyond reasonable doubt" principle/arguments be applied to speeding tickets as well?

[James Deuce]

I am not sure they just threw it away, they allowed a heap of it to be burned when they agreed to the house being burned down very shortly after the murders took place.



Stored evidence was destroyed in 1995.

[Mom]

Stored evidence was destroyed in 1995.

Perhaps I should have said ...they also allowed...

[Swoop]

Two words on the verdict:

Fucking

Excellent.

[hospitalfood]

bain family reunion = one more bullet

[hospitalfood]

but seriously, i never thought he did it and think it is great that the jury say he is not guilty.

the police made mistakes in the original case, thats the only reason he ended up in prison. that and the fact there was one weirdo left from a weird family and prison was the easy way to solve that problem.

[Dooly]

I reckon the guy has such potential to make cash now he's not guilty.
Employ a manager.......oops, has one, JoeK......get on the speaking circuit, appearances, etc etc etc.

[Naki Rat]

Check out some of the 'evidence' the jury wasn't allowed to hear at the 52 minute mark on this archive:
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/thisweek/hourrecs/Fri,%20Jun%205%2017.00%20trn-newstalk-zb-akl.asf

I also understand that Stuff website had the same info before it was quickly pulled :nono:

[Solly]

In Scotland they have a thrid option - Not Proven

That's cos if the tight barstards are wrong, they get off paying compo :sleep:

[MaxB]

Do you know what? Some part of me still thinks he did it. I thought so then and I think so now. But you can't jail someone on intuition and the chances of getting a conviction after so long were so slim.

I wonder what would happen if in the future when he has got a wife and kids and his life turns to crap. Will he snap? If he didn't do it I guess there is nothing to worry about eh?

[98tls]

What the hell,no matter the result at least we have a new drinking game.Run round the block deliver as many newspapers as you can then return home and have a shot in every room.

[jono035]

Yeah, the problem is more that they can't prove him guilty with the current state of all the evidence. Whether he gets compensation or not depends on whether he was found not guilty because the evidence indicated that he didn't do it as opposed to there simply being not enough evidence to prove that he did.

[Manxman]

David Bain not guilty............

Right o so therefore the defence case that Robin Bain was the killer must be true then eh??

To be the killer you'd have to accept the following.......


It was a lucky guess when David Bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies

Again a lucky guess hen DB told police officer they are all dead

The 25 minute gap between DB finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood.

The bruise on David’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence

The lens from his glasses found in Stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed OR someone else had borrowed the glasses

The lack of fresh injuries on Robin despite the massive struggle with Stephen is just the product of healthy living

David’s finger prints on gun are from a previous time

David telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience

Stephen’s blood on David’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – OR someone else borrowed his clothes

Robin managed to execute his family on a full bladder

The lock and key to the rifle being found in David’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there

Robin decided to wash David’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under Steven’s finger nails

David’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies

The Ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion Bain was pretending to have a fit

Robin Bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide

That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared David.

Also that having just shot his family, and knowing David was due home, that Robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message

Robin would decide David deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder

Robin Bain placed fibres from Davids jersey under Stephen’s finger nails

Robin Bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible?

That Robin Bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular Stephen Bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey before killing himself?

That there is a logical reason that David Bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run.

That Robin Bain put blood on the inside of David’s duvet and on his light switch

That there is an innocent explanation for why David says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine.

That Laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of David

That the “family meeting” David called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill.

That Robin Bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head.

That even though David told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided David was the only one who deserved to live

That David either imagined hearing Laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death

That Laniet allegations of incent with Robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half.

That Robin Bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or DNA being left at the scene.

That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders Bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi.

That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to Robin was not placed there by David but fell onto its edge from Robin’s arms.

That a sickly Robin Bain managed to overpower his teendage son who put up a furious fight

That Robin Bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself

David bain has been found not guilty as a result of a concerted effort to create doubt in the mind of the public and jurors. Oh yeah the jurors, none of whom will not have heard of the case prior to the trial.

I wonder what will happen when compensation is sought and the reasonable doubt/jury is replaced by balance of evidence as viewed by a barrister.

So, do you think he's guilty??? :laugh:

[elevenhundred]

David Bain not guilty............

Right o so therefore the defence case that Robin Bain was the killer must be true then eh??

To be the killer you'd have to accept the following.......


It was a lucky guess when David Bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies

Again a lucky guess hen DB told police officer they are all dead

The 25 minute gap between DB finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood.

The bruise on David’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence

The lens from his glasses found in Stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed OR someone else had borrowed the glasses

The lack of fresh injuries on Robin despite the massive struggle with Stephen is just the product of healthy living

David’s finger prints on gun are from a previous time

David telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience

Stephen’s blood on David’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – OR someone else borrowed his clothes

Robin managed to execute his family on a full bladder

The lock and key to the rifle being found in David’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there

Robin decided to wash David’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under Steven’s finger nails

David’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies

The Ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion Bain was pretending to have a fit

Robin Bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide

That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared David.

Also that having just shot his family, and knowing David was due home, that Robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message

Robin would decide David deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder

Robin Bain placed fibres from Davids jersey under Stephen’s finger nails

Robin Bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible?

That Robin Bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular Stephen Bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey before killing himself?

That there is a logical reason that David Bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run.

That Robin Bain put blood on the inside of David’s duvet and on his light switch

That there is an innocent explanation for why David says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine.

That Laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of David

That the “family meeting” David called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill.

That Robin Bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head.

That even though David told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided David was the only one who deserved to live

That David either imagined hearing Laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death

That Laniet allegations of incent with Robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half.

That Robin Bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or DNA being left at the scene.

That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders Bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi.

That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to Robin was not placed there by David but fell onto its edge from Robin’s arms.

That a sickly Robin Bain managed to overpower his teendage son who put up a furious fight

That Robin Bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself

David bain has been found not guilty as a result of a concerted effort to create doubt in the mind of the public and jurors. Oh yeah the jurors, none of whom will not have heard of the case prior to the trial.

I wonder what will happen when compensation is sought and the reasonable doubt/jury is replaced by balance of evidence as viewed by a barrister.

Obsess much?

[Mikkel]

Interesting poll on kiwiblog http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/ where 74% consider David did it. That is off course a different question to "guilty beyond reasonable doubt".

Yes, I agree - polls are very interesting... not. Especially considering that they are held amongst uninformed members of the public who are - as this very thread is adequated eviden of - not exactly shy in forming an opinion without having the full picture.

EDIT: I blame C2O5HO for the shitty spelling.

[Skyryder]

Yes, I agree - polls are very interesting... not. Especially considering that they are held amongst uninformed members of the public who are - as this very thread is adequated eviden of - not exactly shy in forming an opinion without having the full picture.

Actuall Mikkel I think most here on KB are very informed on the Bain case. Regualrdless of their opinion as to guilt or innocence.



Skyryder

[98tls]

Yes, I agree - polls are very interesting... not. Especially considering that they are held amongst uninformed members of the public who are - as this very thread is adequated eviden of - not exactly shy in forming an opinion without having the full picture. Yea yea,its the intereweb what else can you expect.Last time i saw you you were expressing your opinion to a rather uninformed wooden seat outside the piss tent at the March Hare.:niceone:Seems said wooden seat was unimpressed so you sunk futher into depravity and attempted to convince the already oppressed blades of grass beneath you.:niceone:

[Mikkel]

Actuall Mikkel I think most here on KB are very informed on the Bain case. Regualrdless of their opinion as to guilt or innocence.

Compared to the jury - I'd fucking hope not considering some of the sentiment expressed in here.


Yea yea,its the intereweb what else can you expect.Last time i saw you you were expressing your opinion to a rather uninformed wooden seat outside the piss tent at the March Hare.:niceone:Seems said wooden seat was unimpressed so you sunk futher into depravity and attempted to convince the already oppressed blades of grass beneath you.:niceone:

It's only polite to ask a seat if your sit on it before doing so - just as it's only polite to ask the grass if it wants its hair washed before puking on it. (That said, I can't recall ejecting my guts at the march hare....)

But I'll bloody well stand by my statement. People are so fucking busy forming opinions and passing judgement without knowing half the story - it's quite sickening to behold. ...not that it was anyone else's business in the first place mind.

[98tls]

Compared to the jury - I'd fucking hope not considering some of the sentiment expressed in here.



It's only polite to ask a seat if your sit on it before doing so - just as it's only polite to ask the grass if it wants its hair washed before puking on it. (That said, I can't recall ejecting my guts at the march hare....)

But I'll bloody well stand by my statement. People are so fucking busy forming opinions and passing judgement without knowing half the story - it's quite sickening to behold. ...not that it was anyone else's business in the first place mind. Thats lovely dear.:niceone:

[MisterD]

The bloke had served 13 of his original 16 year sentence and the jury had sat though that pompous tw@t of a defence lawyer for three months...they simply thought "not guilty" is the path of least resistance and we get to go home.

[RantyDave]

That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared David.
Yeah, I wondered about that. But a lot of the defence evidence talked about various contractors coming to the school and finding Robin fucking about with computers instead of looking after the school. So, yeah, maybe he was mad enough to type a suicide note on a computer ... in the 80's.

Anyway, Robin Bain hasn't been found guilty ... there has been found to be reasonable doubt in the case against David Bain which is a different concept all together. It seems clear to me that the Police fucked up royally either which way.

Dave

[Nasty]

Sorry, I think that this jury could go no other way ... due to the simple basics on evidence being destroyed and not being able to be analysed properly under the new testing regimes that have been developed. That the assumptions made, and the scene protections were handled in a shonky manner even in the 90's ....

There is no way that what was done should have been done, whether he is actually guilty is acutally truely irrelevant ...

The defence team do not have to prove innocence (which has to be proved in order to get a payout from the government) ....

As with guilt this can't really be done due to the inappropriate treatment of cruicial evidence in the case.

[peasea]

Can "beyond reasonable doubt" principle/arguments be applied to speeding tickets as well?

Hell no, and I'll tell you why; even though the Bain case would have cost millions it's not an everyday occurrence. The revenue gathered through speeding tickets is ongoing and is now part of the police operating budget, ie; they need that cash to pay for wrecked patrol cars that are parked across State Highways at 90deg to block the path of oncoming bikers.

Plus; most speeding tickets are issued on the basis of information gathered by what are deemed to be infallible machines, radars and lasers. The human element has been removed, along with discretion. (And good manners etc.)

[short-circuit]

david bain not guilty............

Right o so therefore the defence case that robin bain was the killer must be true then eh??

To be the killer you'd have to accept the following.......


it was a lucky guess when david bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies

again a lucky guess hen db told police officer they are all dead

the 25 minute gap between db finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood.

The bruise on david’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence

the lens from his glasses found in stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed or someone else had borrowed the glasses

the lack of fresh injuries on robin despite the massive struggle with stephen is just the product of healthy living

david’s finger prints on gun are from a previous time

david telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience

stephen’s blood on david’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – or someone else borrowed his clothes

robin managed to execute his family on a full bladder

the lock and key to the rifle being found in david’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there

robin decided to wash david’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under steven’s finger nails

david’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies

the ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion bain was pretending to have a fit

robin bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide

that robin bain would type a message on a computer for david telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared david.

Also that having just shot his family, and knowing david was due home, that robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message

robin would decide david deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder

robin bain placed fibres from davids jersey under stephen’s finger nails

robin bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible?

That robin bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular stephen bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey before killing himself?

That there is a logical reason that david bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run.

That robin bain put blood on the inside of david’s duvet and on his light switch

that there is an innocent explanation for why david says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine.

That laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of david

that the “family meeting” david called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill.

That robin bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head.

That even though david told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided david was the only one who deserved to live

that david either imagined hearing laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death

that laniet allegations of incent with robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half.

That robin bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or dna being left at the scene.

That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi.

That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to robin was not placed there by david but fell onto its edge from robin’s arms.

That a sickly robin bain managed to overpower his teendage son who put up a furious fight

that robin bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself

david bain has been found not guilty as a result of a concerted effort to create doubt in the mind of the public and jurors. Oh yeah the jurors, none of whom will not have heard of the case prior to the trial.

I wonder what will happen when compensation is sought and the reasonable doubt/jury is replaced by balance of evidence as viewed by a barrister.

egg fuck'n zackly

[short-circuit]

Were you a prosecution witness or something bwr???:tugger:

These facts have been known, published and widely discussed over the last 14 years or so.

[short-circuit]

get on the speaking circuit.

He's never had a chance to practice - Karam's alway done it for him.

I think the fucker might be mute

[usa-vtwin]

Not Guilty doesnt mean they didn't think he did it..it doesnt mean they think Robin is guilty either...just means that they cant prove beyond ALL doubt David is the killer. Personally after following the trial, reading the books, following the forums, and hearing the evidence against him I thought he was guilty as. At least their will be no retrial at the tax payers expense. Compensation? unlikely as he would have to prove his innocence 100%

[short-circuit]

Compensation? unlikely as he would have to prove his innocence 100%

They won't even attempt it

[ManDownUnder]

And it only took the jurors six hours to arrive at not guilty. If there was ever a case to bin the jury system this was it................


Skyryder

He was released under a Labour Govt too.... probably the one thing they got right...

[ManDownUnder]

Let's assume he was guilty for a second... How much of jail term did he get off?

... closely followed by question 2... how many others are in this same boat? So what's the big deal over Bain? Or is it the amount of public money spent on it - in which case I think your angst should be directed at Social Welfare

You lot clearly need lives. It's done, the decision was made by a jury of 12 peers there's nothing that beating the issue up yet again in the KB Kangaroo Justice System is going to achieve...

Unless the little voices are just too loud ... just let it go...

[short-circuit]

:Offtopic:
He was released under a Labour Govt too.... probably the one thing they got right...

Do you honestly not understand that the judicial system is separate and independent of the parliamentary system?

[ManDownUnder]

Do you honestly not understand that the judicial system is separate and independent of the parliamentary system?

noooooooooooooooooo really? I do know they're as tighly linked as KB and the judicial system, so the comment's every bit as useful as this thread ... which may have been my original point (look up - see the vapour trail?)

[short-circuit]

noooooooooooooooooo really? I do know they're as tighly linked as KB and the judicial system, so the comment's every bit as useful as this thread

Fair enough, just checking.


However - look at your post count, then look at mine. How much of your KB involvement would you consider to be constructive and useful? Admit it - really this is just Arsebook with a motorbike theme

[ManDownUnder]

How much of your KB involvement would you consider to be constructive and useful?

I have my moments

[ManDownUnder]

I reckon we need at least another 5, preferably started by a fair representation across the minorities, the get a fair representation of all the facts of the Bain Murders.

I've started a poll already for people that have all the facts and actually know the truth. They're obviously clairvoyants so they'll know where to find it...

[Matt Bleck]

lol, look at meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[yungatart]

A thread with facts and truth in it....how completely unnecessary!:doh:
It is far more fun to assume, surmise, presume, estimate, guess and extrapolate don't you know?
Facts..pfft...what utter twaddle! :bleh:

[Mom]

Do you think another 5 will actually be enough? I am not so sure, we are such a diverse bunch, I think 7 :yes:

[NighthawkNZ]

Do you think another 5 will actually be enough? I am not so sure, we are such a diverse bunch, I think 7 :yes:

I was thinking around 10 more... or an even dozen:chase:

[smoky]

You guys are unbelievable;

Not only are guessing, but the way you arrogantly come on here and presume that your superior knowledge and intellect alone can see right thru this sham and you know he's guilty, it just shows how self absorbed you are.
After 3 months presenting investigative evidence from; 4 trials, Privy Council ruling, two books and hundreds of police hours - the jury and most sane people realise there just wasn't enough evidence to find him guilty
Yet you think your reliable sources (the media?) have feed you enough to make the call all by your self.

What a load of utter bollocks :rofl:

[Skyryder]

I thinkthe Bain threads are becoming the bane of KB.


Skyryder

[Taz]

Who's this Bain?

[smoky]

...the fact there was one weirdo left from a weird family and prison was the easy way to solve that problem.

Some truth in that sentiment


But I would like to give you another view of David Bain;

He grew up in a very talented musical family, you may know of the Tremworths - Hamilton County Blue Grass band, thats his auntie and cousins, talented people.
His family started to implode while he was a young teenager, mum & dad should of separated but instead they waged a loony war with each other, they were weird all right, each claiming the other was possessed or a witch, using the kids to get at each other.
David rejected these games - he left home, but returned for one reason; to try to help his siblings thru all the crap - hence his close relationship with his sister. We all know where she ended up in life.
David had some good friends from high school, from his operatic society, a few mates who he rode motorbikes with as well. Even a girl friend or two.
He may be tall and gangly, is ears could do with pinning back, very unfortunate choice of jersey to be seen in - but he wasn't the only one to be wearing them back then.

He wasn't weird, he wasn't isolated, he fitted in well in social circles, a lot of people knew what his family life was like, and admired the fact he was strong and held it together for his siblings.

I've been impressed with him since he's been out, at how balanced he still is considering what he's been thru.

[Blackshear]

First thread I've actually looked at. To find out it's not someone with the same get-the-fuck-over-this-useless-media-cow mindset as myself.

[sil3nt]

I reckon the family cat did it.

[TLMAN]

(10 chars))

[oldrider]

Still five unsolved murders to deal with, are they now simply to become dust under the mat? :shifty:

Surely the police :Police: can't be allowed to just walk away from that! :nono:

Law enforcement, Justice and corrections in NZ is a shambles! :brick:

Lawyers and their ilk have turned it into a circus! (IMHO)

It is they who perform and applaud each other and it is they who reap the major benefits.

Meanwhile, the tax payers act as compulsary sponsors to garantee their lifestyle remains in place completely unfettered!

One needs to look no further than the Bain case and associated costs for an example. :doh:

[James Deuce]

It was the Colonel with the lead pipe in the library. FFS.

[Murray]

Some truth in that sentiment

David had some good friends from high school,

And as stated in this mornings hearald he shared with one of them how he could use his paper round as an alibi, and how he wanted to rape a jogger he fancied.

Not allowed to be presented in court though as may prejudice his case???

[Big Dave]

It was the Colonel with the lead pipe in the library. FFS.


You haven't got a Cluedo.
All I've read is the headlines. But that was plenty.

[Elysium]

In reply to ManDownUnder, no I think we need more threads!

[Cheshire Cat]

yaaaay!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sil3nt]

yaaaay!!!!!!!!!!!!your avatar disturbs me.

[Elysium]

yaaaay!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yay! Thread merge!

your avatar disturbs me.

Well it is Bjork.....I think.

[Scouse]

Some truth in that sentiment


But I would like to give you another view of David Bain;

He grew up in a very talented musical family, you may know of the Tremworths - Hamilton County Blue Grass band, thats his auntie and cousins, talented people.
His family started to implode while he was a young teenager, mum & dad should of separated but instead they waged a loony war with each other, they were weird all right, each claiming the other was possessed or a witch, using the kids to get at each other.
David rejected these games - he left home, but returned for one reason; to try to help his siblings thru all the crap - hence his close relationship with his sister. We all know where she ended up in life.
David had some good friends from high school, from his operatic society, a few mates who he rode motorbikes with as well. Even a girl friend or two.
He may be tall and gangly, is ears could do with pinning back, very unfortunate choice of jersey to be seen in - but he wasn't the only one to be wearing them back then.

He wasn't weird, he wasn't isolated, he fitted in well in social circles, a lot of people knew what his family life was like, and admired the fact he was strong and held it together for his siblings.

I've been impressed with him since he's been out, at how balanced he still is considering what he's been thru.If your lucky maybe he will let you root him seein as you care for him so much.

[Maha]

If your lucky maybe he will let you root him seein as you care for him so much.

Well he does a decent set of ears to hang on to!!

[sinned]

How long before another book is written? This is not going to go away.

[Boob Johnson]

Well, she it, knee grow!

I for one have watched this trial from a distance & loosely maintained that he was innocent. Loosely due to not having all the facts based on a care factor of rather low proportions if im honest.

However after reading a multitude of comments (http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/your-views/2009/6/5/who-killed-bain-family-did-jury-get-it-right/?c_id=466&objectid=10576684&commentpage=5) on nzherald online & here one has to wonder if he is in fact the sum bitch pile a monkey nuts that done these God awful tings!. Much of the major evidence I had no real idea about. It's pretty hard to not point the (bloody) finger (or socks) at David that's for sure!

He is a good actor & one cold fish!

[Cheshire Cat]

your avatar disturbs me.

:eek: Bjork is awesome!! :banana:

[smoky]

And as stated in this mornings hearald he shared with one of them how he could use his paper round as an alibi, and how he wanted to rape a jogger he fancied.

Not allowed to be presented in court though as may prejudice his case???

Not allowed in court because it's not true, unreliable or here-say. There are a lot of people who lie just to get attention.
there was one woman who said she had had a baby to David after he forced himself on her - the Police groomed her for months, until someone pointed out she would've been 10 when it happened, turned out she was never even in Dunedin, never had a baby and needed medication?
But the Police were so keen to prove the point they hadn't done their home work, the media so keen for sensation they hadn't looked into it either.
And if you believe one account in the paper shortly after the murders - you would've believe he had sacrificed a goat in a bizarre religious ceremony in the days after the murders?

But you go ahead and believe everything you read and hear - it's obviously more reliable

[ManDownUnder]

I thinkthe Bain threads are becoming the bane of KB.


Skyryder

LOL! Credit where it's due LOLOL!!!!!

Touche!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Skyryder]

Who's this Bain?

Bain there done that.


Skyryder

[ynot slow]

The biggest criminal act there were the QC charging out at $160hour poor we things,sure it has to cover overheads and researchers,but without legal aid $600 hour,who says we don't have a counterfeit operation running in NZ.Legalised money printing.

[candor]

Or it was mixed as per other posters... Dad did it mostly ie did the females (seems unlikely on forensic evidence tho bar the bloody sockprints), then the son who had been well alerted puts up a struggle as David enters his room joining the fray, seizing the gun off Robin David accidentally kills his brother getting blooded. Then his Dad commands him to assist his suicide and tells him to accept no responsibility for any of it - ever. Men do not like to kill their SONS.

So poor young David then in shock does his laundry, changes Dads socks out of respect (a bit of finicky OCD maybe - remember how pedantic he was re the clothes his dead sisters were laid out in), finally putting that dimwitted message on the computer - then calls Police once all is in order. Conveniently claims memory loss as knows times etc look bad.. Even to the point wouldn't testify at the retrial - despite telling media afterwards - I KNOW what happened. Oh thats interesting - howso and what?

This scenario would answer why he didn't call an ambo for his alive sister - prolly gone by time it was all played out. Telling that his whole family were prosecution witnesses - the ones with the greatest interest in establishing the truth - unlike Joe busybody Karam. I don't know why no shared guilt theory was examined - why the artificial dichotomy? A lot of money would be saved if David and Robin both wore GPS and juries required brains.

[YellowDog]

The most puzzling thing about all this for me is that DB didn't take the stand to attempt to convince the jury of his innocence. The laundered clothes say "Guilty' and you have to ask why?

Also, with all these supposed fights and struggles; where was the photographic evidence of bruising to DB's body? The prosecution didn't do a thorough job and failed to prove something that should not have been difficult to prove (unless it didn't happen as they claim).

The most strange thing for me is why DB didn't confess after the conviction and say what actually happened. He spent 13 years in jail and would have been out long ago if he had actually told the truth, rather than staying silent.

Both sides played this one very badly and it is the NZ taxpayer who has had to sort out their mess.

[chucky19]

The most puzzling thing about all this for me is that DB didn't take the stand to attempt to convince the jury of his innocence. The laundered clothes say "Guilty' and you have to ask why?

Also, with all these supposed fights and struggles; where was the photographic evidence of bruising to DB's body? The prosecution didn't do a thorough job and failed to prove something that should not have been difficult to prove (unless it didn't happen as they claim).

The most strange thing for me is why DB didn't confess after the conviction and say what actually happened. He spent 13 years in jail and would have been out long ago if he had actually told the truth, rather than staying silent.

Both sides played this one very badly and it is the NZ taxpayer who has had to sort out their mess.

Of course he didn't take the stand, he would be too far away for Joe to stick his hand up his arse and move his mouth for him.

No photographs were taken becouse DB lawyered up as soon as he could and refused a full body search. This case was not difficult to prove, what was difficult to combat was the 14 years of media adulation and the cult of personality that Joe was able to create.

That, combined with the defence's permitted refusal to produce either the names or nature of their expert witnesses' testimony, prevented the prosecution from testing and evaluating what was going to be presented by the defence 'experts' as evidence. Some of what they said was absolute crap, either lies or incompetence. Remember DB's lawyers had 14 years of examination of the prosecution case to cast doubt and find 'experts' willing to comment for cash. Some of them didn't agree with Joe and were ignored.

Of course things could have been done better/differently, but to do so you need to have a complete reconstruction of the crime BEFORE you start examining a scene. We don't live in a world of CSI where evidence falls from the sky.

Yes it's been expensive, but it's worth it to ensure that justice prevails.

It sure would have been cheaper if the TRUTH had prevailed, but like CSI, that just don't happen.

[MattRSK]

He wont be getting any compensation.

[Indoo]

Also, with all these supposed fights and struggles; where was the photographic evidence of bruising to DB's body? The prosecution didn't do a thorough job and failed to prove something that should not have been difficult to prove (unless it didn't happen as they claim).
.

There were photographs and evidence from an examination of David a doctor did a few hours after the murders. The doctor found a visible lump to his head, along with two other bruises and a graze to his knee and stated that the injuries all appeared to be fresh and would have occurred roughly before or when the murders happened. David also had no explanation for his injuries at the time when the doctor asked him but his defence later created a scenario whereby the Police or Ambulance bruised him when he fainted by dragging him. Just like the rest of his defence, it was created after trial and error many years after the fact.

The whole thing became a bit of a farce, the jury it appears was completely and utterly emotionally invested in the affair and got swept along in it losing rationality and impartiality along the way. You can see that in Michael Reeds closing address, I think most outsiders thought it a joke when he kept referring to David being a 'good boy' and such a lovely peaceful man, but he clearly read and understood that jury to the detriment of the facts and evidence.

[Genestho]

He wont be getting any compensation.

Wouldn't imagine so at this point.
Doesn't fit the compo criteria.
Not Guilty, is not proven innocent.

[sinned]

How about an upset with a conflicting coroner conclusion on how Robin Bain died?

"The Dunedin coroner has said he might take another look at the Bain family's deaths, given David Bain's acquittal.
As a result, existing death certificates might be incorrect."

I just can't wait.

[smoky]

If your lucky maybe he will let you root him seein as you care for him so much.

You have a fixation with homo's don't you? You should buy a Honda
All the red rep from you on my profile; talking about cock sucking?

You lack any ability to discuss issues without getting all uptight and abusing people, getting personal for some reason.
Do you like me so much, you seem obsessed with making sexual comments to me?

[Swoop]

The biggest criminal act there were the QC charging out at $160hour...
A QC charging only $160-??
BARGAIN!!

[ManDownUnder]

I've cracked it - it was Lee Harvey Oswold's original plan, and it was Professor Plum in the Bathroom with the magic plumber's mate from the grassy knoll

So obvious now I put all the pieces together...

[p.dath]

A QC charging only $160-??
BARGAIN!!

I agree. Even barristors charge more than that. QC's tend to be more like $450/hour and up.

I suspect the cheap rate might be because of the publicity and fame gained. What a great promotion for the QC concerned. Either that or they felt sympathy for Mr Bain.
What am I saying, it was a lawyer. They were doing it for personal gain.

[marty]

how about joe karam, after spending the last 13-odd years in the media saying 'the first jury got it wrong, how could they only spend 7 hours deliberating, it was a foregone conclusion' etc, has the nerve to go on TV tonight complaining that the media is not respecting the findings of the jury?

Typical of the defence's way of chosing only information to make their client look good

[Skyryder]

I've cracked it - it was Lee Harvey Oswold's original plan, and it was Professor Plum in the Bathroom with the magic plumber's mate from the grassy knoll

So obvious now I put all the pieces together...


And come to the conclusion that it was the SITH



Skyryder

[Hitcher]

Typical of the defence's way of chosing only information to make their client look good

Have you not heard of the adversarial justice system? The prosecution does what ever is necessary to make the defendant look bad and the defense does everything it can to make them look good. It's nonsense and nothing to do with "justice".

I much prefer the coronial enquiry system where the Coroner can direct proceedings, seek whatever information or evidence they feel necessary, and directly question witnesses.

[Swoop]

I wondered about the amount of time spent deliberating. However...
A jury tends to make their minds up during the case itself. Once the jury goes out, there will be an amount of time to find out who has formed a decision, then finding out "what" decision everyone has come to.
Then working towards a unanimous verdict, one way or the other.

This jury had spent considerable time being exposed to the evidence and argument and, I presume, managed to form their own opinions well ahead of time.

[mynameis]

10 Fucken Char

[short-circuit]

Just saw the promo for an interview on Campbell Live tonight with Joe Karam saying he "couldn't have fought against this evil without David"

WTF!!!

[marty]

Have you not heard of the adversarial justice system? The prosecution does what ever is necessary to make the defendant look bad and the defense does everything it can to make them look good. It's nonsense and nothing to do with "justice".

I much prefer the coronial enquiry system where the Coroner can direct proceedings, seek whatever information or evidence they feel necessary, and directly question witnesses.

I'm pretty well versed in the shortcomings of the current system, however what really grates me is that the Police are obliged to disclose everything, the defence can pick and choose what they use, and they can surprise the court with what/whomever they choose.

The coronial system, pretty much like the one employed by the military and certainly by the SFO when it existed, would be good, but it would never pass the 'Green' test

[MIXONE]

I agree. Even barristors charge more than that. QC's tend to be more like $450/hour and up.

I suspect the cheap rate might be because of the publicity and fame gained. What a great promotion for the QC concerned. Either that or they felt sympathy for Mr Bain.
What am I saying, it was a lawyer. They were doing it for personal gain.

The maximum amount chargeable on Legal Aid by a lawyer is $160 per hour for I think a maximum of 15 hours.

[ynot slow]

The maximum amount chargeable on Legal Aid by a lawyer is $160 per hour for I think a maximum of 15 hours.

Yep my understanding,but not sure of maximum hours,but then Reed is a lawyer and they have huge egos.

QC-thought that stood for queer cunt,that's what Reed reminds me of,theatrical wanker.

[JimO]

Yep my understanding,but not sure of maximum hours,but then Reed is a lawyer and they have huge egos.

QC-thought that stood for queer cunt,that's what Reed reminds me of,theatrical wanker.

did a good job though

[short-circuit]

Hate to bring it up again...but... I haven't heard much on the David Bain front for a while :yawn:

[Maha]

Hate to bring it up again...but... I haven't heard much on the David Bain front for a while :yawn:

Wouldn't it be great to see a one on one interview with David Bain and whoever?....like thats gonna haapen!

[Winston001]

Bain was acquitted on the basis of reasonable doubt. Not surprising given the years of publicity before the trial and 13 weeks of evidence. All the defence had to do was introduce enough experts to confuse the jurors and bingo = reasonable doubt.

What bothers me is two jurors going to his celebration party afterwards. What if he'd been convicted and jurors had gone to the prosecutors party....? We'd be screaming bias. :bash:

[Swoop]

A very good article from Sir Bob Jones on the whole situation.

Rather interesting that the canadian judge sees the compensation issue as viable.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10845366

[oldrider]

As you grow older keep in mind the fact that Robin Bain was supposed to have had a full bladder at post mortem! (Don't hear much about this now!)

I do not believe a man over 50 could do all that on a full bladder!

As said above, you will understand the significance of this factor as you grow older! :yes:

Robin Bain was a somewhat frail man in his senior years!

The more I see of David Bain, the more convinced I am of his guilt and there are still "five" unexplained murders outstanding in Dunedin! :facepalm:

Has Justice been done in this case? Is it clear and beyond all reasonable doubt that David Bain is not guilty? Should he be paid compensation?

IMHO - NO!

[Paul in NZ]

As you grow older keep in mind the fact that Robin Bain was supposed to have had a full bladder at post mortem! (Don't hear much about this now!)

I do not believe a man over 50 could do all that on a full bladder!

As said above, you will understand the significance of this factor as you grow older!

Mind you - if someone in the family was sitting on the dunny reading while said 50 year old mans bladder was bursting it could provide a motive to commit murder....

[Banditbandit]

It is also not clear and beyond reasonable doubt that he did it either ... It's just goingto be one of those unsolved murder mysteries ... we will never know ...

[oldrider]

It is also not clear and beyond reasonable doubt that he did it either ... It's just goingto be one of those unsolved murder mysteries ... we will never know ...

True! It's the compensation that I am saying no too! :oi-grr:

[oneofsix]

As you grow older keep in mind the fact that Robin Bain was supposed to have had a full bladder at post mortem! (Don't hear much about this now!)

I do not believe a man over 50 could do all that on a full bladder!

As said above, you will understand the significance of this factor as you grow older! :yes:

Robin Bain was a somewhat frail man in his senior years!

The more I see of David Bain, the more convinced I am of his guilt and there are still "five" unexplained murders outstanding in Dunedin! :facepalm:

Has Justice been done in this case? Is it clear and beyond all reasonable doubt that David Bain is not guilty? Should he be paid compensation?

IMHO - NO!

Being over 50 I know what you mean about the bladder but you will also know;

how quickly it can fill, actually the Mrs had a case of this with an ultra sound where she was sent out to, and did completely empty it but it was half fill when the radiographer put the thing on
That when you really have to do something you can delay for quite some time, not easy nor without risk IYKWIM but if it was him and he was planning not to care any more then what the heck.
Also not convinced that Robyn was the only possible other but of course the defence didn't have to prove who, just show that it could have been another and Robyn was an easy target.



agreed there are still 5 unexplained murders in Dunedin.

It wasn't proven beyond reasonable doubt either way however innocence doesn't have to be proven beyond doubt, thankfully, in criminal law.

As to the compensation, there was a miscarriage of justice, this is aside from the innocence/guilt thing, and as they failed to prove guilt at the end of all the mishandling and he has suffered without his guilt having been proven then he has been wronged. Also the compensation comes under civil law where the bar is the preponderance of evidence, if he is 50.x% more likely innocent than guilty then he gets the money. The same rule that found OJ guilty in a civil court but not a criminal one and if they can't prove David 50.x% more likely to be guilty than innocent then why the fuck did they refuse to face this fact for so long and how come the supposedly beyond reasonable doubt criminal system locked him up and our appeal system refused him redress via appeal for so long?

[oldrider]

If neither David or Robyn (sp?) did it, why have the Police put the case aside?

Who did it still has to be resolved and like rust, the Police should never rest ... it's what they do FFS! :confused::shifty::mellow:

[Edbear]

If neither David or Robyn (sp?) did it, why have the Police put the case aside?

Who did it still has to be resolved and like rust, the Police should never rest ... it's what they do FFS! :confused::shifty::mellow:

Eventually the truth will come out. The Police don't forget, and if someone can come up with something convincing they will investigate it.

[Banditbandit]

If neither David or Robyn (sp?) did it, why have the Police put the case aside?

Who did it still has to be resolved and like rust, the Police should never rest ... it's what they do FFS! :confused::shifty::mellow:


Eventually the truth will come out. The Police don't forget, and if someone can come up with something convincing they will investigate it.

:facepalm:

[scumdog]

As you grow older keep in mind the fact that Robin Bain was supposed to have had a full bladder at post mortem! (Don't hear much about this now!)

I do not believe a man over 50 could do all that on a full bladder!

As said above, you will understand the significance of this factor as you grow older! :yes:



Meh, I'm well over 50 and often I suddenly realise at about 8:30 in the morning I haven't had a pee yet - I get so engrosed in whatever I'm doing that I simply 'forget'!:wacko:

So I thought that line of explanation why Robin Bain 'couldn't have' by the prosecution a tad spurious...

[duckonin]

Eventually the truth will come out. The Police don't forget, and if someone can come up with something convincing they will investigate it.

Or make it up to suit ....:yes:

[Winston001]

Also the compensation comes under civil law where the bar is the preponderance of evidence, if he is 50.x% more likely innocent than guilty then he gets the money.

Not quite correct. The level of proof is the civil standard - on the balance of probabilities/preponderance of evidence. That is usually understood to be 66% certain, not 50.1%. Essentially David Bain is in the position of having to prove he was 66% unlikely to have committed the murders.

FYI beyond reasonable doubt is usually regarded as 75% certain.

[Banditbandit]

FYI beyond reasonable doubt is usually regarded as 75% certain.

Naa mate ... I have heard many many judges tell the jury that if they have any doubts at all they can not convict ... bvut trhese "doubts" have to be "reasonable" - what reasonable people would think ... which is why a jury is made up of 12 reasonable people (apparently) ..

[oneofsix]

I always took it that beyond reasonable doubt meant that using reasonable argument there had to be no doubt in your mind that they were guilty but I decided to do some wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_doubt) hunting, a law library would have been better I know, and this upsets me.


New Zealand
In New Zealand, jurors are typically told throughout a trial that the offence must be proved "beyond reasonable doubt", and judges usually include this in the summing-up.[6] There is no absolute prescription as to how judges should explain reasonable doubt to juries. Judges usually tell jurors that they will be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt if they "feel sure" or "are sure" that the defendant is guilty.[7] In line with appellate court direction, judges do little to elaborate on this or to explain what it means.[6][7]
Research published in 1999 found that many jurors were uncertain what "beyond reasonable doubt" meant. "They generally thought in terms of percentages, and debated and disagreed with each other about the percentage certainty required for 'beyond reasonable doubt', variously interpreting it as 100 per cent, 95 per cent, 75 per cent and even 50 per cent. Occasionally this produced profound misunderstandings about the standard of proof."[6]

No wonder some of the convictions are so suspect and then the appeals process doesn't address these dodgy convictions. Sorry but if we are to convict someone as a criminal then we should be sure they did it.

as for Preponderance of the evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preponderance_of_evidence#Preponderance_of_the_evi dence)

Preponderance of the evidence
Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases.
This is also the standard of proof used in Grand Jury indictment proceedings (which, unlike civil proceedings, are procedurally unrebuttable), and in family court determinations solely involving money, such as child support under the Child Support Standards Act.
The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. Effectively, the standard is satisfied if there is greater than 50 percent chance that the proposition is true. Lord Denning, in Miller v. Minister of Pensions,[5] described it simply as "more probable than not." Until 1970, this was also the standard used in juvenile court in the United States.
This is also the standard of proof used when determining eligibility of unemployment benefits for a former employee accused of losing their job through alleged misconduct. In most US states, the employer must prove this case based on preponderance of the evidence.

Also has a quote more what I thought about beyond reasonable doubt.

Either way if he can prove it was more likely he didn't do than he did he gets the money.

[Winston001]

Sigh...

Reasonable doubt does not equal no doubt. Each juror needs to be pretty damned sure but they don't have to be 100% certain.

The balance of probabilities is a lesser standard meaning much more likely than not.

In the Bain case in practical terms the judge may decide Bain was unlikely to have committed the murders = compensation. But he's going to have to show the police should not have prosecuted Bain or that they acted wrongly.

The reference above to percentages for these differing standards of proof is only a rough shorthand used by lawyers to guide their clients. Jurisprudential scholars debate this stuff endlessly, even using algebra to describe the process.

[Banditbandit]

Yeah ... plenty of debate .. which is why we challenged your percentages ... If the lawyers and jurisprudence experts can't decide .. then who are we to do so ..

[oneofsix]

Agreed. Never meant 100% absolutely no doubt as stated. Scary that they can't decide on the meaning of such a simple phrase :shifty:

Hair splitting; but not just if the police got it wrong, also if the courts screwed up perhaps disallowing stuff that should have been allowed or visa versa.


I reckon it was the extended family trying to rid themselves of an embarrassing branch and they talked David into letting them burn down the house whilst he was in prison to remove all possibility of new evidence turning up. :Oops: the tin hat slipped, sorry about that.

[R650R]

Bump... this seemed longest thread...

That first episode tonight was interesting... let’s see where it goes next week...

Read one of the other books years ago saw both sides...
But on that show, the mother sure seems angry. Could she have done it then David framed the father?

[SaferRides]

Bump... this seemed longest thread...

That first episode tonight was interesting... let’s see where it goes next week...

Read one of the other books years ago saw both sides...
But on that show, the mother sure seems angry. Could she have done it then David framed the father?You should read the book.

Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

[HenryDorsetCase]

Bain is a murderer and an Oscar worthy actor. MHO of course.

[Berries]

That first episode tonight was interesting... let’s see where it goes next week...
Hate to spoil it, but I think David goes to prison.

[R650R]

Hate to spoil it, but I think David goes to prison.

Hilarious LMAO

[R650R]

Bain is a murderer and an Oscar worthy actor. MHO of course.

One new thought I had watching last night was that David and his father both seemed lacking in the motivation dept for getting anything done.

[fridayflash]

Real life David had an RM80 when they lived in Port Moresby .... it would be great if they were able to recreate that in this tv show
... David ripping around the compound on a raspy old air cooled 80cc mx'er would be chur.

p.s he's a murdering baddie.

[Berries]

I'm just worried because the Mrs came home today swinging a crystal on a string and after two minutes she just said 'Nah, fuck cooking dinner"



Win win.

[R650R]

Real life David had an RM80 when they lived in Port Moresby .... it would be great if they were able to recreate that in this tv show
... David ripping around the compound on a raspy old air cooled 80cc mx'er would be chur.

p.s he's a murdering baddie.

They had him crashing a kwaka 600 on a test ride 6 weeks before murder tonight....

[Banditbandit]

We'll never know - two possibilities - one is dead, the other saying he did not do it

My money is on father - but who the fuck knows apart from David .

[R650R]

We'll never know - two possibilities - one is dead, the other saying he did not do it

My money is on father - but who the fuck knows apart from David .

Watching the series has brought a set of other possibilities up, again we donÂ’t have enough info...

1- David alone which I kinda believe now with all the stress incidents he had leading up.

2- Father alone but he seems to relaxed to kill anyone over anything. If anything heÂ’d have shot Laniets Pimp first if he was going to kill.

3- Mother and David collude in murder suicide pact

4-Pimp turns up to collect debt, or take Laniet, David intervenes and it goes south.

5- Content Redacted

The killing of the father inside the house is interesting though. Just how punctual was his morning routine compared to DavidÂ’s paper run etc. Cause if David planned this and really heÂ’d need too, you canÂ’t have the father entering the house at a random time, David night still be busy shooting the others... well I guess like any criminal act logic is far from the core of things.