I have listened. A new class, some diff solutions? [Archive]

neil_cb125t

8th July 2009, 12:08

Cheers for the input. I have taken away and come up with this

A] I need to get over the SV vs 400 thing – its so much on the fun on the track so go with it:Oops:

B] Another class is not the answer!! To many already and all of us would suffer with less track time

C] Clubmans is necessary, I still don’t like it – buy a bike that fits a class like normal people….. but it has a use ( which ill get to )

D] Homologation of a class is the way forward so other classes don’t suffer!!

The Answer is to add this idea to another class – at rnd 2 there was a total of 32 entries in PC 82 onwards incl JNR and SNR, so additional bikes can be added. If the grid fills up then you have to make the 115% or you’ll get bumped to you guessed it ......Clubmans.:rockon:

Solutions

A] Add another era in PCs 1990 -2000 JNRs max 400cc 4s or 250cc 2 strokes NON GP bikes and SNR max cc 750cc or 1000cc twins 4 stroke or 500cc 2 strokes NON GP bikes. Keeping 89 separate.

B] modify the year to 1982-2000 keeping the cc JNR and SNR the same, I dont think this would be good with R6’s vs 1988 cbr600’s vs KR1’s. and 996’s against moseys FZ1000.:bash::gob::angry2::argh:

C ] meet in the middle JNR PC from 1982 – 2000 up to 500cc 4 stroke 4 cyl and 250 2 strokes. PC’s SNR we can make 1982 -2000, 500cc – 750cc 4 strokes or pre 89 umlimited cc. with up to 500cc 2 stroke Combining the class totally.

Would this get 96 GSXR600s out with 89 GSXR1100cc and 92 RGVs with ZXR400??

Is this better for the sport?? Without taking away importance from other classes?? :scooter:

cheers

Benk

8th July 2009, 12:48

malcy25

8th July 2009, 13:20

Dont mean to sound like a prick, but whats the point? Getting mid 90s 600s and thouands in on the racing? Theyre not old enough to be cool or interesting, and not new enough to be leading edge. Seems like it would just water down posties, which would be shit. There are already tons of classes, and even if this would run together with something else, it still detracts from the other classes.

I dont see any point in adding another class like this.

+1.

Option C and "E" which you didn't have, which is leave pre 89 as it is as best as I can tell it works pretty well. Shifting an existing cut off date will only drive people out the back end at the same speed you drive people in the front end.

I'm all for more people riding/racing, but the pre 82 and pre 89 classes are fine as they are - my view is don't screw with them. Shit it's taken 5 + years to get pre 89 in the rule book as it is (yes pre 72, pre 82 and pre 89 are very defined set of rules at MNZ level). Post 89 classes will no doubt come and I'm sure the postier club will look at this in time.

I think the postie classes are designed the way they are for a very specific reason. You may want to talk to the Postie club pres about why they are the way they are, before trying to fiddle with the rules they have no doubt fought hard to create.

I think letting trying to mod the postie rules is about as useful as letting 89-99 600's-1000's race in F3.

How about option "F" making clubmans for riders who are really new riders plus guys with bikes who don't really fit elsewhere, and people on modern 600/750/thou's harden up, move up and stop trying to burgle it. This would create the class were the bikes being proposed would fit and wouldn't screw an existing class.

sinfull

8th July 2009, 14:02

Peter Smith

8th July 2009, 14:14

A bike class that covers 18 years (1982-2000) wouldn't work. Who would be daft enough to try and bring a 1983 bike upto the speed of a 1999 bike.
I would sell my 89 GSXR1100 as it wouldn't be competitive against 2000 models.

neil_cb125t

8th July 2009, 14:42

So how about option A making another period to be run within PCs??

A bike class that covers 18 years (1982-2000) wouldn't work. Who would be daft enough to try and bring a 1983 bike upto the speed of a 1999 bike.
I would sell my 89 GSXR1100 as it wouldn't be competitive against 2000 models.

neil_cb125t

8th July 2009, 14:48

yep agree with filling clubmans - So question how do we fill a class that has no rules with machine size and eng layout. And doesn't do championship points??

Its all about getting people out there for sure!!

VMCC don't seem to have a problem filling grids ! In winter Even !
It's the nationals where the problem lies re low numbers !
More classes at club level is only gonna mean less track time for those racing !~
More track days could be a go, get ppl keen to take things to the next level !
Fill the clubman grids and the natural flow on effect should start filling the nat grids !

Benk

8th July 2009, 15:18

yep agree with filling clubmans - So question how do we fill a class that has no rules with machine size and eng layout. And doesn't do championship points??

Clubmans is pretty damn full every time ive been to a meeting. Whats up with trying to fix clubmans? I didnt realise it had a problem?

Skunk

8th July 2009, 16:26

Clubmans is the class for people who are; giving it a go, getting up to speed, learning to race. VMCC have a lap time cut off based on the lap times of other classes. Get to be quick enough and you're out of Clubmans.
Expecting someone who has never been in a race before to turn up with a fully prepped R1 and start off in F1 is a 'bad idea'™.

avgas

8th July 2009, 16:38

How about road-legal classes. Anything sub-600cc and anything sub-1500cc.
Must be road-legal, no slicks, full-road running gear.

Or a standard bike class using the same ratings?

Benk

8th July 2009, 16:41

If we carry on at this rate, we will have a class each. Whoop, I can win my very own championship :grouphug:

(to be fair though, id probably crash and lose to myself)

(P)

8th July 2009, 16:51

How about road-legal classes. Anything sub-600cc and anything sub-1500cc.
Must be road-legal, no slicks, full-road running gear.

now you're talkin.
mirrors off and into it.

all people want is to race against others on similar machinery, to get closer racing.

Benk

8th July 2009, 16:57

now you're talkin.
mirrors off and into it.

all people want is to race against others on similar machinery, to get closer racing.

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about!? Your other posts made little sense, this makes NONE!

So you think me taking my mirrors off my gsx 250 and racing around the track, versus a gsxr 600 will bring close racing. HAHAHAHA. And what constitutes a road bike? From harleys to Gixxers thous, and plenty in between.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Gold.

all people want is to race against others on similar machinery, to get closer racing.

Profound. What do you think EVERY other class in NZ is for.

Oh man, i gotta stop.......

(P)

8th July 2009, 17:03

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about!? Your other posts made little sense, this makes NONE!

So you think me taking my mirrors off my gsx 250 and racing around the track, versus a gsxr 600 will bring close racing.

read avgas's last post plonker,I quoted it. where in his post did he suggest racing some pussy arsed 250 against a gsxr600? He suggested 2 classes.
do your homework before making a cock out of yourself...dude

wharfy

8th July 2009, 17:03

VMCC don't seem to have a problem filling grids ! In winter Even !
It's the nationals where the problem lies re low numbers !
More classes at club level is only gonna mean less track time for those racing !~
More track days could be a go, get ppl keen to take things to the next level !
Fill the clubman grids and the natural flow on effect should start filling the nat grids !
what he said

Plus there is a big gap between the National level racers and the club level racers.

Check out the times on mylaps for the winter series F1 races.

To get guys/girls up to National level we need to encourage more to start young and learn the ropes. A couple of notable successes in this years Nationals were Glen Sketchell who came via streetstock and Moto Academy and Sloan Frost who came via MX

Clubmans is pretty damn full every time ive been to a meeting. Whats up with trying to fix clubmans? I didnt realise it had a problem?

what he said as well.

(P)

8th July 2009, 17:04

Oh man, i gotta stop.......

yea, mommy is calling you for tea time

sinfull

8th July 2009, 17:39

but whats the point? .Think the only point really, is to get bums on seats at nats level which has to start at club level !
Agree with ya re posties (not that i've ever raced in it), seems to be plenty in the field and lots of fun racing going on, perhaps should be left well alone !
In fact everything at club level looks good in my humble opinion, just F1 thats suffering from lack of thous !
Seen a couple of guys the other week that i'd say will want to be on sightly higher HP bikes before long !

I Like Darrins (redline) work with the trackday he had last week ! Now if he opened that up for those with road bikes that want to experience grid starts, we all know what starting in a grid does to adrenalyn junkies (most who'd do a track day are)
Sure that would get a few more keen to strip their bike down and race it !!!

How about road-legal classes. Anything sub-600cc and anything sub-1500cc.
Must be road-legal, no slicks, full-road running gear.

Or a standard bike class using the same ratings?

Just need more trackdays then aye, with grid starts maybe even !

mossy1200

8th July 2009, 17:42

Just gets messy when you want rsv1000 1999 mille against 20year old bikes.
Think the 89 is in a race class because the technology is carbed big bore for 89 senior and hotrods for pre 82.I got into pre89 so that I could advance my bike without the need to upgrade.Change the bench line and the existing posty riders just gotta dump what they got and upgrade.
seniors anyway can go buy a 89zx10,89cbr1000,89gsxr1100,89fzr1000 and play with bikes that are reasonably well matched.Add bits,go faster but not waste the money.
After 89 the bikes just got better,lighter and more power.
if the class of pre89 senior gets big enough do what aus did and add pre95.
pre89 senior would have to get big enough to split away from junior to warrent this.When juniors start failing to qualify is the time to do it not while there is normally less than 35 on the grid.
adding more bikes will also have the effect of more people jumping out of junior and onto zx7s etc.
if you want a different approach go with clubmans pre 2000(b) and clubmans modern(a) and give them championship points again.

This will give the guys with out of date f1 and f2 bikes a market to sell their bike to upgrade and will encourage the passing down of these bikes to new riders as a entry level that they can run with for a couple or few years and be part of a series with points.To upgrade you need to off load your older ride for a good value and the benefits will be good for the sport across the whole range of classes.

After all Neil let say you were a mid pack qualifier this year in position 20-25 have fun and competing with others on un modified 400s for bragging rites and every last point you can get then you turn up next year and cant qualify because 12year old 750s and 600s and twin 1000s come push you back to 36 in qualify runs.Then you gotta spend money(no choice upgrade or power up or run new rubber and wets etc)just to race.if you cant afford your gunna give it in.

Whitebait

8th July 2009, 18:10

If we carry on at this rate, we will have a class each. Whoop, I can win my very own championship :grouphug:

(to be fair though, id probably crash and lose to myself)

You crack me up BenK..........hey at least if you had your own class you wouldn't be able to take anyone out but yourself............:gob:

koba

8th July 2009, 18:30

neil_cb125t

8th July 2009, 18:30

this is why i am propsing a class that seperates bikes because of that!!

@ the moment clubbys is just what your talking about... all in.

Im talking about separate champs - 400cc 4s and 250 2 smokes then the SNR class with 750s and 600s and twin 1000s pre 2000.

but hey i have nothin but negatives from my ideas so will continue to ride in Posties and no one can complain they can all harden the fuck up and buy ohlins and a 444 kit then get out a note book and take some fucken lessons!!

there ya go ive gone postal!!

[QUOTE=After all Neil let say you were a mid pack qualifier this year in position 20-25 have fun and competing with others on un modified 400s for bragging rites and every last point you can get then you turn up next year and cant qualify because 12year old 750s and 600s and twin 1000s come push you back to 36 in qualify runs.Then you gotta spend money(no choice upgrade or power up or run new rubber and wets etc)just to race.if you cant afford your gunna give it in.[/QUOTE]

koba

8th July 2009, 18:33

there ya go ive gone postal!!

You just wait 'till I get my VFR out there sonnyjim!

Then we will see an arsekicking!

You kicking me that is...

scracha

8th July 2009, 18:53

Neil,

Presumably you're talking about club level racing.

One of the main points of Pre89 was to promote cheap racing but that seems to have been forgotten. 20 year old bikes are hard to maintain and are now starting to go up in price. A competitive Pre89 senior or junior bike is now quite pricey and Pre82 is just stupidly expensive.

Clubmans without a championship is pointless too. Ban tyrewarmers and slicks in that class too...it's farkin stupid. Ditching the clubmans class isn't a stupid idea. Give em yellow bibs for the first 3 races, if they're $hit they'll qualify at the back anyhoo and if they're dangerous then politely tell em to do a few more trackdays or let em out at lunchtime. Upshot is that if they're amazingly talented they will get noticed more as they'll be 'the guy in the yellow bib leading F1.'

Chopper...F2 is alive and kicking but F1 at club level is hardly booming.

F3 needs a complete revamp anyway...a class based around bored out and outdated Japanese 400cc license restrictions and the "SV650 cup" is too stupid for words. At club level there's only a handful of competitive nationals level riders that regularly turn up. Add aircooled 600cc 4's and 800cc aircooled twins or summit.

Benk.. clubs in other countries use a rolling age rule and their racing is booming. You've got to remember that the 'outdated' bike you raced the previous year has had development time so won't be completly blown away. The outdated bikes can still be sold (to someone less competitive) or you just wait till they become competitive again in an older racing class. Not really different to a modern F1 or F2 bike in that respect. Keeps the racing very interesting with new bikes coming into the class every year. Think of all the cool specials that could be racing. Maybe relax the restrictions a little the older they get?

Again, it all depends on demand but I'd rather watch 35 pre 1995/2000/2005/whatever bikes dicing on the track than 10 SV650's. Talking of demand...the Pre82 attendance at the last Vic round was shockingly low so if over the next few rounds it becomes apparent that they're rather go to NZPCRA arranged meetings then they seem the obvious choice of class to ditch.

gatch

8th July 2009, 19:20

F3 needs a complete revamp anyway...a class based around bored out and outdated Japanese 400cc license restrictions and the "SV650 cup" is too stupid for words. At club level there's only a handful of competitive nationals level riders that regularly turn up. Add aircooled 600cc 4's and 800cc aircooled twins or summit.

There is already provision to run up to 640cc water cooled twins and 750cc air cooled twins (twins over 500cc must have oem airbox, filter and carb) nothing over 450cc multi's though..

mossy1200

8th July 2009, 19:29

There is already provision to run up to 640cc water cooled twins and 750cc air cooled twins (twins over 500cc must have oem airbox, filter and carb) nothing over 450cc multi's though..

750 air cooled.i wanna see a ducati 750ss out there now.66hp stock.What are they like tweeked but with standard carbs.The 93 model is factory lightish at 175kg with road gear.

malcy25

8th July 2009, 21:36

One of the main points of Pre89 was to promote cheap racing but that seems to have been forgotten.

So, where is this epiphany being quoted from....doing a quick web search finds the NZPCRA website and their constitution being their guiding principles don't even say that http://http://www.nzpostclassics.org.nz/index.php?pr=About_Us In fact it says : To foster the preservation, restoration and use of motorcycles built or manufactured between 1 January 1963 and 31 December 1989

Benk.. clubs in other countries use a rolling age rule and their racing is booming.

Yeah and which countries is that? Not Aussie and when they did it it one club in the UK it was universally panned as being a f..up. The US don't do it either but there rules are just weird though, so forget them. Those are the countries that have a well known, well recognised, and dare I say it "booming" Postie racing scene.

Those same countries may also have how many million people?

The only orgainisations that regularly run a rolling age entry are enthusiat clubs which are NOT racing. ie vintage car clubs, Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club etc - usually at teh tune of 1 year for every two years gone. The guys who run te racing clubs know it's a sure way to screw your existing racers.

So really who cares? do we need a rolling age group? No, if you bothered looking you'll see that the NZPCRA has taken a diferent tack. Gets the same result in the end (ie more bikes eligible), but achives it differently and ring fences the existing bikes from being thrown away.

Some guys might actually enjoy racing the Bike they have (and may have bought that model bcecause they like it or wanted it, not just just because it was eligible, without wanting to have to constantly up date it and may be why they went postie racing - refer Mossy further up the page.

The less people try to screw with class rules in general across all classes, f1 - 125's , the more stability there is for people to know what they can do and plan ahead for, the more likley people are likely to get their feet wet.

the Pre82 attendance at the last Vic round was shockingly low so if over the next few rounds it becomes apparent that they're rather go to NZPCRA arranged meetings then they seem the obvious choice of class to ditch.

I bet all the guys with 1000cc F1 class bikes in the Vic Club series are glad they didn't do that to their class after the lower turn outs last year...instead, someone thought it might be a good idea to actually support them and find out what the issue was, the find a solution.

f3, well, I guess the reason so many 400/4 based bike are still there is that they were a mainstay of the class for so long at so little cost and only now are they being over taken (yes, at a certain cost though).

polly

8th July 2009, 22:06

Some guys might actually enjoy racing the Bike they have (and may have bought that model bcecause they like it or wanted it, not just just because it was eligible, without wanting to have to constantly up date it and may be why they went postie racing - refer Mossy further up the page.

I have just started this form of motorcyle racing after many years of doing others. I had a lot of fun racing at VMCC R1 & R2, about to enter R3.

The post classic class appears to have a good feild with 30+ bikes at both meetings so far. Is there a problem ?

I started racing in this class as the rules looked to be fixed and should be the same for a few years. I hope this is not about to change.

Benk

9th July 2009, 10:07

read avgas's last post plonker,I quoted it. where in his post did he suggest racing some pussy arsed 250 against a gsxr600? He suggested 2 classes.
do your homework before making a cock out of yourself...dude

Yeah man, sub 600 (600 sports bikes are normally 599cc), and anything sub 1500cc. Done my homework. Im not arguing with you anymore. I waste enough of my life as it is. :beer:

yea, mommy is calling you for tea time

Yes, and it was amazing! Eye fillet.

you had your own class you wouldn't be able to take anyone out but yourself............:gob:

.......:devil2:

Benk.. clubs in other countries use a rolling age rule and their racing is booming. You've got to remember that the 'outdated' bike you raced the previous year has had development time so won't be completly blown away. The outdated bikes can still be sold (to someone less competitive) or you just wait till they become competitive again in an older racing class. Not really different to a modern F1 or F2 bike in that respect. Keeps the racing very interesting with new bikes coming into the class every year. Think of all the cool specials that could be racing. Maybe relax the restrictions a little the older they get?

Maybe, seems like alot of hassle for FA though. We are up to our arsehole in classes as it is. Cant wait for 2 x 2 lap sprint races :yawn:

Peter Smith

9th July 2009, 10:40

Here is the major problem;
1. National level riders come from club events.
2. Club riders come from road riders having a go at club meets or track days.
3. Road riders come from the younger generation buying road bikes.

Point 3 is where it is all going wrong. Teenagers today are buying cheap Jap cars (just look at how the boy racer numbers have grown). Motor bikes are too expensive and you can't fit your drunken mates on one.
Drifting events are atracting the young people, not motorcycle events.

Most of the guys racing in the nationals are 30+. There are a few youngster but not many.
The future for motorcycle road racing is going to be tough, and it is not just in beautiful NZ.

Deano

9th July 2009, 11:55

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about!? Your other posts made little sense, this makes NONE!

So you think me taking my mirrors off my gsx 250 and racing around the track, versus a gsxr 600 will bring close racing. HAHAHAHA. And what constitutes a road bike? From harleys to Gixxers thous, and plenty in between.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Gold.

Profound. What do you think EVERY other class in NZ is for.

Oh man, i gotta stop.......

Ten bucks says you get a red (grey actually LOL) rep from (P) for this one.

scracha

9th July 2009, 12:30

...

So your point is that we keep racing 20 year old bikes and just hope more of them magically start turning up on the grid? At least propose some way of getting the newer and cheaper bikes out there racing before you bag all my suggestions. At least if we try a rolling 10 year old class or a Pre 2000 class or "steel framed" class or "non fuel injected class" or whatever and it doesn't work we can work on it and modify the rules from there. At the moment, there's loads of cheap 5 to 20 year old potential race bikes that are sat rotting and if including them gets more folks out racing then I'm all for it.

neil_cb125t

9th July 2009, 12:46

Primo Stevey- totally!!

So your point is that we keep racing 20 year old bikes and just hope more of them magically start turning up on the grid? At least propose some way of getting the newer and cheaper bikes out there racing before you bag all my suggestions. At least if we try a rolling 10 year old class or a Pre 2000 class or "steel framed" class or "non fuel injected class" or whatever and it doesn't work we can work on it and modify the rules from there. At the moment, there's loads of cheap 5 to 20 year old potential race bikes that are sat rotting and if including them gets more folks out racing then I'm all for it.

Benk

9th July 2009, 12:57

Ten bucks says you get a red (grey actually LOL) rep from (P) for this one.

Shit man, I hope so, I need to BE as much of a badass as I feel (on KB at least) :whistle:

Benk

9th July 2009, 13:00

if including them gets more folks out racing then I'm all for it.

Will it? Id love to hear from some people who want to be racing, have a 5-20 year old bike in the garage, and arent racing because theres no class for them.

From what ive seen, those that want to race, race. Those that want to wait around, and moan about everything, race to post on KB.

scracha

9th July 2009, 13:54

Will it? Id love to hear from some people who want to be racing, have a 5-20 year old bike in the garage, and arent racing because theres no class for them.

From what ive seen, those that want to race, race. Those that want to wait around, and moan about everything, race to post on KB.

Posting a poll. My gut feeling is that since the majority of bikes that are ridden on the road are between 5 and 20 then if there was a class for them, there'd be a hell of a lot more folk racing.

Benk

9th July 2009, 13:58

Deano

9th July 2009, 14:03

Check out the times on mylaps for the winter series F1 races.

I've heard there is a 2 second diffeence between a cold winter track and the summer Nats conditions.

F3 needs a complete revamp anyway...a class based around bored out and outdated Japanese 400cc license restrictions and the "SV650 cup" is too stupid for words. .

Revamp F3 all you like but leave pro twins as a separate class within the F3 'race'. The SV class is getting busier and makes for close racing, and less prone to burgling by cheque book racers.

Deano

9th July 2009, 14:06

Posting a poll. My gut feeling is that since the majority of bikes that are ridden on the road are between 5 and 20 then if there was a class for them, there'd be a hell of a lot more folk racing.

You think ?

If someone is serious about racing, surely they will sell the 'incompatible bike' and buy one to fit into a class that suits their requirements/budget/capabilities.

At the moment, there's loads of cheap 5 to 20 year old potential race bikes that are sat rotting and if including them gets more folks out racing then I'm all for it.

And guess what....Clubmans is the perfect place to start. Do people expect to win a championship in their first year ? It's about learning the craft initially isn't it ?

Str8 Jacket

9th July 2009, 14:24

Revamp F3 all you like but leave pro twins as a separate class within the F3 'race'. The SV class is getting busier and makes for close racing, and less prone to burgling by cheque book racers.

I agree with Deano! I am definately interested in racing Pro Twins in the next 2 years and i'll bet you the grids will start to grow over the next few years. I reckon its an obvious step up from Street Stock for me.

As for Clubmans, why not leave it alone?! I know that if I can afford a pro twin bike next year and I am still riding/racing like I am now then I will definately start out as a clubmans rider for my first year. Its nice to know that clubmans is there, should I need it!! :yes:

mossy1200

9th July 2009, 15:36

So your point is that we keep racing 20 year old bikes and just hope more of them magically start turning up on the grid? At least propose some way of getting the newer and cheaper bikes out there racing before you bag all my suggestions. At least if we try a rolling 10 year old class or a Pre 2000 class or "steel framed" class or "non fuel injected class" or whatever and it doesn't work we can work on it and modify the rules from there. At the moment, there's loads of cheap 5 to 20 year old potential race bikes that are sat rotting and if including them gets more folks out racing then I'm all for it.
I turned up last year and Martin Peck this year.Its growing.
I think clubmans should develop clubmans(a)new generation bikes and clubmans(b)10year and older on a revolving timeline and give them championship points again.This will be the class that semi retired bikes slightly out of date can compete.It serves as entry level and spot for the 2nd and 3rd generation bikes plus fresh road conversions etc.
Post classic is still about a generation period race and the 89 cutoff stops fuel injection and modern lighter design causing huge differences in performance.

malcy25

9th July 2009, 16:23

So your point is that we keep racing 20 year old bikes and just hope more of them magically start turning up on the grid? At least propose some way of getting the newer and cheaper bikes out there racing before you bag all my suggestions.

I am saying don't screw up the existing successful classes. If that if you look closely pre 72, pre 82, pre 89, Classics, etc. The all have a very defined rule strategy, which means that bikes DON"T get kicked out the back door and they are protected from the later model bikes by establishing fixed age grouping, so the bikes don't once again become obsolete, worthless and discarded. I know it's anti consumerism, but it does work. Is especially pertinent given the number of people who are moaning about teh cost of racing!

Things to think about with age related tech rules (ie for old bike racing):
1) Age related technical rules are a very different world from say f3, protwins, prod superbike etc. As one person who has dealt in the arena for 20-30 years said to me, you need to look 2-3 years ahead and try and understand the impact it will have on the class.
2) Most of the age based racing is related to the preservation of the bikes. Thus, the cut off's are structured around technical periods of change.
3) The rules are to ensure a high degree on authenticity of the machinery. Adding a rolling age date cut off just means that in 3 years you just end up having some modified specials of limited value made up of a collection of disparate parts with no intrinsic value or spectator interest. Thus a big version of bucket racing.

Changing cut off's of existing classes is the wrong "lever" to pull to get a result. An ill informed, knee jerk 'solution" like this usually results in a screw up of a carefully created balance and very unintended consequences. First, use the 4 W's. Why, What, Where, When, How. (okay the last one is H and is the 5th of 4!) is stopping these mythical riders and bikes from entering. Then we can have a fact based discussion about what a real solution could be.

Most of the Postie classes have stemmed from proving the need exists - In recent memory, pre 82 and pre 89 classes are proof of this process. Get the bikes out and build a class from it. The challenge to you is get those guys on their bikes in at least clubmans to prove that a another "grouping is possible". However, this must not be at the expense of a good existing class.

Especially now that rules are formalised and in the MNZ rule book which should go some way to removing some burgler bikes.

Oh,and if you read back, I did make a suggestion on what I think should be done regarding not so old bikes and clubmans. Mossy has the same view just above this post.

scracha

9th July 2009, 17:36

es.
Oh,and if you read back, I did make a suggestion on what I think should be done regarding not so old bikes and clubmans. Mossy has the same view just above this post.

Mossey's suggestion ain't bad as a starter. F3 aside (cos it's fucked in it's present for IMHO...and I'm not talking about Pro-twins), I've never mentioned changing the current post classic classes or rules so I dunno where everyone has got that into their head.

I'm just pointing out that times move on and we should be looking towards a new 'post classic' cut-off date...a new class. Pre 95 or pre 2000 or summit along these lines. I'd love to see fireblades and ZX7R's and CBR600F3's and suchlike out racing competitively again. You hear some peeps getting misty eyed and going 'these were the bikes I grew up with'. Well...these were the bikes I grew up with.

Adding a rolling age date cut off just means that in 3 years you just end up having some modified specials of limited value made up of a collection of disparate parts with no intrinsic value or spectator interest. Thus a big version of bucket racing.

A big version of bucket racing sounds awesome to me :beer:

Deano

9th July 2009, 18:58

The Answer is to add this idea to another class – at rnd 2 there was a total of 32 entries in PC 82 onwards incl JNR and SNR, so additional bikes can be added. If the grid fills up then you have to make the 115% or you’ll get bumped to you guessed it ......Clubmans.:rockon:

I don't see what would be achieved by having an extra 3 bikes on the PC grid.

Why not just put them in Clubmans to start with, as it is now, albeit with A and B being age related, as Mossy has said.

mossy1200

9th July 2009, 19:18

I don't see what would be achieved by having an extra 3 bikes on the PC grid.

Why not just put them in Clubmans to start with, as it is now, albeit with A and B being age related, as Mossy has said.
Its like i said in the other thread.
If you knock the tail off post classic with newer entries you will push them into clubmans.
Then it wont be long before post classic becomes clubmans and clubmans becomes postclassic.The oldest smallest bikes will become clubmans racers.
Not only will they be left out of posties they will line up with weekend warriors on new bikes.(No offence intended to clubmans guys but some of your bikes are f1 f2 standard equipment and your lap times would put you in the sharp end of these fields).

scracha

9th July 2009, 20:37

Its like i said in the other thread.
If you knock the tail off post classic with newer entries you will push them into clubmans.
Then it wont be long before post classic becomes clubmans and clubmans becomes postclassic.The oldest smallest bikes will become clubmans racers.
Not only will they be left out of posties they will line up with weekend warriors on new bikes.

My point was that if there were enough entries you'd have them as a different class. Maybe pre 95 and pre 2000. A bit like how we currently have pre 82 and pre 89.

If a class consistantly as more than 35 entries then perhaps it should be split? Especially when we have classes where only a handful of bikes circulate.

Shouldn't we be encouraging more riders out on the racetrack?

mossy1200

9th July 2009, 20:48

My point was that if there were enough entries you'd have them as a different class. Maybe pre 95 and pre 2000. A bit like how we currently have pre 82 and pre 89.

If a class consistantly as more than 35 entries then perhaps it should be split? Especially when we have classes where only a handful of bikes circulate.

Shouldn't we be encouraging more riders out on the racetrack?
It would be great to have pre82,89,95,99 etc in one race and same for juniors in another if the fields would warrent it and they prob would BUT you now got to convince every racer to knock a lap off every race to fit in another class or maybe just 1race(longer per event).I already look at the amount of time per buck at the events.Or do you dump clubmans and tell them to enter the class there bike qualifies in.

scracha

9th July 2009, 21:02

It would be great to have pre82,89,95,99 etc in one race and same for juniors in another if the fields would warrent it and they prob would BUT you now got to convince every racer to knock a lap off every race to fit in another class or maybe just 1race(longer per event).I already look at the amount of time per buck at the events.Or do you dump clubmans and tell them to enter the class there bike qualifies in.

Well...lets spend a good bit of time having serious debate about this "new" class. Get an idea of the number of riders. Work out some rules to try and keep the racing interesting and costs realistic (just like pre-89 and I didn't use the word 'cheap'). From my perspective there are certain classes that consistantly have very few bikes entered so they're voting with their feet anyhoo. If there were 20 riders who say they'd 100% compete in this class then it's a simple numbers game....you drop or merge classes where there are say...6 bikes circulating.

If club racing events are continuously over-subscribed then that's a good thing. You can always split events. The new class should be intended to attract new racers, not further fragment the existing "pool" of riders.

Deano

10th July 2009, 07:45

From my perspective there are certain classes that consistantly have very few bikes entered so they're voting with their feet anyhoo.

Which ones Stevey ? PC usually has 28 - 32 bikes.
Clubmans only has 18, so some room for more there.

But as Mossy says, if you increase PC entries with PPC then some existing PC racers will get pushed into Clubmans. Not a win win.

If club racing events are continuously over-subscribed then that's a good thing. You can always split events.

Do you mean hold more events ? Who is going to run these extra events ?

The new class should be intended to attract new racers, not further fragment the existing "pool" of riders.

Then let them enter Clubmans if they want to get into racing.

There is no way I want my track time reduced bro. I am not into cross entering to get more track time - if anything, I would rather have a little more track time in my particular class.