New format for clubmans. [Archive]

mossy1200

9th July 2009, 19:49

There is alot of fresh and good ideas floating arround with changes to classes.
Everyone has ideas and thats good for progress of the sport.
Post classic seems to be a target for change but the biggest problem is im not convinced its broken,damaged or needs changed.
Post classic is a play ground for those who like to maintain and race against other bikes of equal tech and performance.
Every race has races within racers and guys battle for every point.

The idea of a newer generation of bike that cant compete with the latest and greatest bikes is great.lets be honest a 1998yzf just isnt in the same league as a 2008r1.

Clubmans bike run around the track with no champ points and no real purpose.
the guys in clubmans that want to show every meeting would surely rather have an overall championship to set their sites on.I may be wrong.

Would it not make sence to split them into pre 2000 and after 2000 and give them champ points.

In my opinion this gives an entry level comp and sets the scene for slightly older f1 f2 f3 bikes to be sold into a hungry market.This brings new guy and gals in and alows for more affordable upgrades at the top end of the sport.
If the new classes become popular enough they will end up running two individual races(eg too many entries).That would be good aswell at some point in the future.

My defination of postclassic is time period racing of older generation bikes(eg carb big bangers and screaming little rippers).If we start adding newer generation machines we risk knocking away the tail of the field who have put time and effort into their higher maintence labour of love race machine.

Deano

10th July 2009, 09:08

IMO this is the best idea yet.

t3mp0r4ry nzr

10th July 2009, 09:17

awesome, if we can avoid the burglers who are after a 'post 2000' championship title.

Kiwi Graham

10th July 2009, 09:46

Out of little acorns grow mighty oaks!

Ace idea :2thumbsup

Deano

10th July 2009, 09:57

awesome, if we can avoid the burglers who are after a 'post 2000' championship title.

"I burgled Clubman's"....where's my trophy. :not: (No disrespect, but it is an entry level class for beginners)

Actually, Pete Tanner and Griz burgled Clubmans at the Nats a couple of years ago :Pokey:

Sonykid

10th July 2009, 09:59

I think you are kind of missing the point of Clubmans racing.
Surely Clubmans is for people who are just starting out racing, or for riders that are just out for some fun on uncompetitive equipment.

A Championship, although it would be nice to have, would ruin the nature of Clubmans and attract guys looking for the title who should really be racing in the other classes. I have just started racing in Clubmans this year after doing 2 rounds of the PMCC Summer series and it is interesting to see that already 3 of the guys I started out with have moved up to Supersport because there was nothing to race for in Clubmans and they wanted to learn more, the idea of a Clubmans Championship would have seen these guys stay which would not have benefited the class as they were already quite a bit quicker than the average guy.

The splits proposed of post 2000 and pre 2000 would make no difference to the racing as far as I can see as most of the guys I am racing against are on post 2000 equipment and how is it fair that a 2000 RG150 has to race against a 2008 R1 for a championship? I know which bike I would choose for my Championship bid.

I think that the bigger problem is for the guys on F1 class bikes like Speed triple, KTM Superduke, Aprilia Tuono etc, bikes which are quite competitive in Clubmans (I still get taken out on the straights by early model GSXR and modern Supersport bikes which lots of people are on) but have to step up to F1 when they leave Clubmans and ride against the modern litre bikes and well set up Supersport machines.

Lucky then that I am only racing for the enjoyment and weekend fun and I will enjoy getting the Clubmans podiums while they last.

Nice to see someone having a think about making our sport better. Well done that man.

sinfull

10th July 2009, 10:13

Lucky then that I am only racing for the enjoyment and weekend fun and I will enjoy getting the Clubmans podiums while they last.

Nice to see someone having a think about making our sport better. Well done that man.
In all honesty i think that idea would give ppl with the bikes you mentioned something to race for and still be fun for those who do it for fun (untill a naked class hits the scene) And like has been mentioned there will be those who want to sell their bike after learning a bit of race craft and move into the classes !
There has to be an entry level ! We all know clubmans can be, shall we say less than the safest class around, but it is still the entry level !
I say promote the shit out of it !
Soooo can i come back now ????:blank::chase::third:

Sonykid

10th July 2009, 10:19

Can i come back now ????:blank::chase::third:

NO...... Ha ha ha.:msn-wink:

Sonykid

10th July 2009, 10:31

sinfull

10th July 2009, 10:52

Sinfull,

It would be fun for me and a couple of other guys who would be in with a chance but I am not sure you can have Championships where there is such a huge difference in the performance of the bikes. It will only achieve 3 things.

1. Encourage higher expenditure on equipment and upgrades in the learner class where theses things should not be an issue and the emphasis should be on learning, fun and growing the racer base.

2. Encourage riders on good equipment or with great skill to stay in the learner class when the idea of Clubmans is as a feeder class to the formulas. The lack of a Championship is an incentive to move on. These riders are also known as Burglars.

3. Stroke the ego's of the "Championship Winners" and devalue the status of a Championship win. "I won the Clubmans championship on an ex Andrew Stroud 1ltr bike and all the other loosers where on SV650's"
You forget that the clubs still have the cut off point and most will know when they are close ! Either they will slow down and stick with having fun there or up grade the machine and move up (which as Mossy said will bring more bikes into the game) You can't tell me you aint looking at bikes to upgrade to ! With an eye to racing them ?

And no you still can't come back! :nono:
Awwwwww (will find out on the 25th if i'm even at the cut off point yet lol) But no, i wouldn't go back, i'm able to do twice the racing i ever could in C/M (if the old bones would just let me lol) And it aint all that scary in the classes ! If it ever came to a point where the 115% cut off came into effect and i was told i was to be moved down to C/M (another reason C/M is there) my pride wouldnt be hurt either, hehe give me the perfect opportunity to come whoop your arse !

WarrenW

10th July 2009, 12:18

SonyKid you are right on the mark, this is exactly the reasons behind the Vic Club removing points from the Clubmans class! The idea is that we want to encourage them to step up to a class where they can get meaningful results and not stay and win just because they can against learners.

Clubmans and Post Classics will no doubt remain the way they are for the forseeable future because they are a formula which works. All the people that have old bikes that do not qulaify for Posties will either need to upgrade like everyone else does to keep current or wait until their bike comes into a new era of posties (likely to be in about 7 years time). Or race in clubmans where there is no encouragement to be at the sharp end of the feild.

It's a simple formula that works. Don't mess with it.

kittytamer

10th July 2009, 12:54

It's a simple formula that works. Don't mess with it.

Totally agree.
I'm learning big time in Clubmans with no pressure or expectation. And the goal isn't to win the 'championship' but to learn enough to be quick and more importantly, safe enough to move into a proper class (F2 in my case).
This year hopefully...

KS34

10th July 2009, 13:12

Sonykid

10th July 2009, 15:00

Maybe there is just too higher expectation on winning!, Most bikes will fit into a class. For example I will be running a K6 gixxer 750 in some winter series rounds in the superbike class, I know I wont win but I know I'll have fun. I think we also have to remember alot of the winning is done with your top 2 inches not the bike. The more people that run in classes not exactly designed for their bike ie me or older bikes helps everyone fit in. What I mean is if there are a few older 1000 and some 750's the field will be bigger and there will be more competition to race against at the different levels within the class. And what joy you get when you kick the arse of a newer or bigger capacity bike!!

I think you are totally right here and I need to remember, along with others, that unless we are top 5% guys, talent and bike wise, we are all there for the fun and the competition.

I would much rather have a great 3 bike battle at the back of the F1 feild than be running around in first or second, 15 seconds from another bike in Clubmans. But for the mean time I just need to keep working on the race craft.

roogazza

10th July 2009, 15:55

Totally agree.
I'm learning big time in Clubmans with no pressure or expectation. And the goal isn't to win the 'championship' but to learn enough to be quick and more importantly, safe enough to move into a proper class (F2 in my case).
This year hopefully...

Proper class, PROPER CLASS ! I'm still working on my race craft thanks. G.

wharfy

10th July 2009, 16:13

I think you are kind of missing the point of Clubmans racing.
Surely Clubmans is for people who are just starting out racing, or for riders that are just out for some fun on uncompetitive equipment.

.

Yep it is great to find out if you want to race without spending a lot of dough.
The idea of the VMCC format is you can run any bike you like as long as you don't go under 1:18 more than a couple of times.

No championship points is to stop people lurking there when they should be somewhere else. I think the Vic club have got it pretty much right.

KS34

10th July 2009, 16:16

[QUOTE=Sonykid;1129299195

I would much rather have a great 3 bike battle at the back of the F1 feild than be running around in first or second, 15 seconds from another bike in Clubmans. But for the mean time I just need to keep working on the race craft.[/QUOTE]

Good on you! I personally think racecraft has been largely put aside and it becomes a pissing contest for alot of racers. I learnt alot with the season I did on my old 600 in clubmans. Too many guys blame the bike or the setup instead of putting their heads down and finding out what they are doing on the bike and how they can change mentally to go faster.

mossy1200

10th July 2009, 17:01

Proper class, PROPER CLASS ! I'm still working on my race craft thanks. G.
Not all need to be in it for points but to some its a motivation to compete before moving up classes and surely thats what we are after.
I choose not to do clubmans and go straight into posties having never raced before because it was a class that i thought I might do ok in as a beginner and have had podium finishes every meeting including all the rookie meetings with a second overall by only one point in that year.Only having done two track days.
nothing wrong with it still being entry level and a place for not so recent comp bikes.The guys doing it for fun are not going to care about the points and those with 1999rsvs are.Is there harm in that.if you race f1 or 2 and want to sell your 3year machine this is where the market would be.Carry over the two year max rule and its still great to push people up the line to the higher classes.I cant think that the competitive guys would want to remain in clubmans any longer than that if they are fast enough.

sinfull

10th July 2009, 19:11

Ya get championship points in F2 ??? Where are mine then aye aye aye ? Awwww (goes and sits at the back again)
Ok all the talking in the world aint gonna fix nothing !
Sooooo, What needs fixing ?
From my seat, it looks to me like club racing is alive and well ! Why fuck with it ! (unless it's to allow more ppl to try racing ! Oh wait we have clubmans for that huh ?)
Way i see it is, if ya want to race your bike, you can !
It's the nats that are lacking in grid sizes !
Don't know if i can help there lol 115% rule will have me racing in C/M's ! Oh wait there wasn't any C/M at the last Nationals meet i went to !!!
Soooo i didn't race at the nationals !
Prolly wont this year either !
Might just have me another bourbon now !!!

Skunk

10th July 2009, 23:02

I don't want to sound negative but:

Clubmans bike run around the track with no champ points and no real purpose.
the guys in clubmans that want to show every meeting would surely rather have an overall championship to set their sites on.I may be wrong.
That's not what Clubmans is for. It's a place to get the skills then move on. That is why there are no points. That's why you're asked to leave the class when you reach race pace of a class you fit in.

Would it not make sence to split them into pre 2000 and after 2000 and give them champ points.No. See above.

In my opinion this gives an entry level comp and sets the scene for slightly older f1 f2 f3 bikes to be sold into a hungry market.This brings new guy and gals in and alows for more affordable upgrades at the top end of the sport.
If the new classes become popular enough they will end up running two individual races(eg too many entries).That would be good aswell at some point in the future.Slightly older bikes can run in this class - and be sold to a hungry market. A market of riders wanting to try their hand at racing.

At present running two classes would be a bad thing - there isn't time in the day...

Deano

10th July 2009, 23:11

I don't want to sound negative but:

That's not what Clubmans is for. It's a place to get the skills then move on. That is why there are no points. That's why you're asked to leave the class when you reach race pace of a class you fit in.
No. See above.

Slightly older bikes can run in this class - and be sold to a hungry market. A market of riders wanting to try their hand at racing.

At present running two classes would be a bad thing - there isn't time in the day...

Would'nt an age based category be a more logical approach rather than A and B which means what ? Beginner and burglar ?

I could have taken my CBR1000RR into Clubmans and burgled it I reckon - but fear of binning it canned that idea.

Given my road experience I thought a better option was an F3/PC Junior bike.

The above idea wouldn't require any more races, but a class within a race.

Skunk

10th July 2009, 23:27

Would'nt an age based category be a more logical approach rather than A and B which means what ? Beginner and burglar ?

I could have taken my CBR1000RR into Clubmans and burgled it I reckon - but fear of binning it canned that idea.

Given my road experience I thought a better option was an F3/PC Junior bike.

The above idea wouldn't require any more races, but a class within a race.We had burglars. They disappeared real fast when points were dropped. They were riding to win without going too fast. Champions.
A vs B? I'm not really sure. They have different lap time limits though.
If you had gone into Clubmans on the CBR and whipped their arses you would have been asked to move on.

The idea would require and extra race in the context of the part I was answering -
If the new classes become popular enough they will end up running two individual races(eg too many entries).That would be good aswell at some point in the future..

Tony.OK

10th July 2009, 23:28

Simple answers are available.............

1- Enter Clubbies on what ya got, see if ya enjoy it.

2- Enjoy it so much ya either race a class that allows your bike to compete, or buy a bike that is eligable, if ya liked it that much thats what you'll do anyway.

3- Not like racing enough that you'll commit to changing bikes to carry on, and be too proud to admit you are no ROSSI when mixing it up in a points class.

4- Realise that instead you can take your xxxxx model bike and go in the slow group at a trackday and puff out your chest:bleh:

Sorry but its late and I feel like ass so my bad self comes out. But its the truth really.

If someone doesn't like the how their 2 door car is too small for a family.....................what do they do?.............buy something suitable.
Man thats a bad analogy.............I'm going to bed

Deano

10th July 2009, 23:30

We had burglars. They disappeared real fast when points were dropped. They were riding to win without going too fast. Champions.

I see what you mean mate. An instructor once said to us "if it was easy, everyone would be doing it" !!

Skunk

10th July 2009, 23:31

With you on that Tony.OK.

sinfull

11th July 2009, 00:39

What ? Bed ? Girls !

sinfull

11th July 2009, 00:53

roogazza

11th July 2009, 08:55

Not all need to be in it for points but to some its a motivation to compete before moving up classes and surely thats what we are after.
I choose not to do clubmans and go straight into posties having never raced before because it was a class that i thought I might do ok in as a beginner and have had podium finishes every meeting including all the rookie meetings with a second overall by only one point in that year.Only having done two track days.
nothing wrong with it still being entry level and a place for not so recent comp bikes.The guys doing it for fun are not going to care about the points and those with 1999rsvs are.Is there harm in that.if you race f1 or 2 and want to sell your 3year machine this is where the market would be.Carry over the two year max rule and its still great to push people up the line to the higher classes.I cant think that the competitive guys would want to remain in clubmans any longer than that if they are fast enough.

It was a piss take mossy, I'm not serious. I came out a couple of times for the fun of it.
By the way in the olden days we didn't have races like clubmans, you bought a bike and entered established classes. My first race was in about 1970 in the rain at Wanganui (in open production on a T350 Suzuki) as young 20 yr old !!!!!
I do remember some street meetings putting on the odd B grade race though.

ps these threads (and there's lots of them ) make the new generation look like a bunch of whingers , no wonder the sport is fucked. G.

Wingnut

11th July 2009, 09:12

ps these threads (and there's lots of them ) make the new generation look like a bunch of whingers , no wonder the sport is fucked. G.

Ahhh hahahaha. We are all Stoners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bleh:

wharfy

11th July 2009, 09:28

Ahhh hahahaha. We are all Stoners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bleh:

I didn't inhale honest !!!

dangerous

11th July 2009, 10:07

Post classic seems to be a target for change but the biggest problem is im not convinced its broken,damaged or needs changed.

Clubmans bike run around the track with no champ points and no real purpose.

My defination of postclassic is time period racing of older generation bikes(eg carb big bangers and screaming little rippers).If we start adding newer generation machines we risk knocking away the tail of the field who have put time and effort into their higher maintence labour of love race machine.

I gather things are different up north, down here clubmans is simpily for anyone or any thing that just want to have a play, often on there road bikes.
So hows it work up there?

What changes do you refer to in posties? I am unawear of anything new... IMO Id like to see wheels NOT open but to remain as the factory had them.
When you say 'start adding newer generation machines' do you mean pre89 or other?
89er's would be great, not many down here as yet so they usualy join the F class they fit or clubmans.
Adding 89 to 82 is a bugger as they make me look slow LOL... but there just isent enough of them for there own race.

Skunk

11th July 2009, 10:17

Scary thing is, i know a kid (pre 14) that could outride me now !
What do i do ? Wait a year (or two) an throw him in clubmans at 14 ?
Or Or Or Orrrrr Maybe build myself a track ! Be parents call there !

Where would ya send talent to race pre MNZ ?

Well fuck, he has a MNZ LICENCE NOW but can't road race !!!

Spell

HELLO
I was under the impression that 13 year olds could race with parental permission. Get them on a RS125 GP bike ASAP. MotoAcademy is setup just for this.

sinfull

12th July 2009, 10:02

I was under the impression that 13 year olds could race with parental permission. Get them on a RS125 GP bike ASAP. MotoAcademy is setup just for this.
Will be helping his old man with finding a bike and setting up for him next year As he will be turning 12 shortly, so it wont be till the end of next year that he becomes eligible to road race, if that is the case !
Meanwhile they are concentrating on getting him to Number 1 in NZ in the 11-13 MX nationals !

Which brings me to the point of development classes !
All this talk of changing C/M or any of the other classes for that matter aint gonna do nothing for developement, it's only gonna be any good for us old fellas joining the sport !
Like any sport, rugby, soccer, MX, you name it, they have developement programmes availible from a very young age !
Like Skunk says MotoAcademy is set up for just this !
Perhaps helping them and others in promoting the young, might get the flow on of some real NZ talent reaching the nationals in a few years ! (where there is a problem)
Sure it will take a while to flow on, but if nothing is done soon, I might even be able to have a crack at a podium at the nats bwahahahahahaha
ok i jest ! But if i fed the top 6 or 7 some tainted chicken the night before mmmmm !